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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] How to say "face down" or "facing"
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I did think later that there might be a better directional 
reference structure on the torso rather than "tatru", but I 
hadn't thought to simply use the assumption that what you meant 
by face-down was in the forward direction as a human walks, 
which is an obvious likely choice for the omitted third place 
of "crane".

On Sun, 2011-10-16 at 08:51 -0400, .arpis. wrote:
> Since men _do_ have {tatyji'o}, I'm willing to assert that men have
> {tatru}.
> 
> However, it sounds metaphorical to use any body part to refer to what
> {crane} already does.
> 
> Perhaps {pinvre lo ckana mi noi fi ri fe ke'a crani}?
> 
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 1:26 AM, H. Felton <lojban707@fagricipni.com>
> wrote:
>         On Sat, 2011-10-15 at 21:49 -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>         
>         > On Saturday 15 October 2011 20:00:14 .arpis. wrote:
>         > > An example sentence is, "I lay down face down on the
>         bed." (as opposed to
>         > > "I lay down face up on the bed.")
>         > >
>         > > {mi pinvre lo ckana fa'a ri} seems to be an incorrect
>         translation, since
>         > > {fa'a} refers to the direction of the event, not the
>         orientation of the
>         > > person.
>         > >
>         > > Would {mi noi farna lo ckana ku pinvre ri} be better?
>         >
>         > That means "I, who am a direction of the bed, lie
>         horizontally on it.". I
>         > think you've found a hole in the vocabulary. I don't
>         remember seeing anything
>         > meaning "x1 is oriented in orientation x2", either in the
>         gismu or in the
>         > spatial tenses. "farna" says what the direction of x2 from
>         x3 is, but not how
>         > either of them is oriented. "carna" says that x1 rotates
>         about axis x2, but
>         > not what it points at when it's finished.
>         
>         
>         I'm not going to pretend that I know enough grammar to attempt
>         a translation; but if "farna" is what it is just described as,
>         and you really want *face*-down, describing the direction from
>         "to'e flira stedu" to "flira" might work; though, for the
>         orientation of the, *body* which is what you appear to really
>         mean to describe, I'd be more inclined to use "tatru" as a
>         reference point; I know that one could question whether men
>         have
>         a "tatru" at all (though, they do have what could be described
>         as vestigial mammary *glands*), but even still one could be
>         taken, in a tanru at least, as meaning the direction of the
>         torso on which other humans "tatru" normally are if the
>         particular human does not have "tatru"; eg, male, too young,
>         had
>         a mastectomy, etc.
>         
>         
>         
>         
>         
>         --
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>         
>         
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> 
> 
> 
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