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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:26:44 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: "mi prami do" or "mi cu prami do" ?
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I don't think it's actually saying "mine".  From what I understand {lo mi
gerku} is equivalent to {lo gerku pe mi}.  {pe} *can* imply ownership when
context would give that impression, but really it only means association.

e.g. {lo mi mamta} =3D {lo mamta pe mi} =3D "the mother associated with me"=
.  I
don't own her.  She is just associated with me.
but {lo mi re'azda} =3D {lo re'azda pe mi} =3D "my house".  That last "=3D"=
 isn't
true strictly, it's just inferred from context.  It could also be "that
house I sold (because I'm a realtor talking to a co-worker)", etc...

As for your original question.  The difference is that {me mi} is saying
"one of those things that are mi".  So technically (IMO):
lo mi gerku cu xamgu =3D the dog that is associated with me is good
lo me mi gerku cu xamgu =3D the dog that is associated with one of the thin=
gs
that is "me" is good.  (though really "one of" is too strict since we're
using {lo})

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:14 AM, najrut <ruler11post@gmail.com> wrote:

> This makes things even more strange.
> Now tell me what is the difference between
> "lo mi gerku cu xamgu" and "lo me mi gerku cu xamgu" ?
> The first one is translated as
> "lo any/some mi gerku dog(s) [of] I, me)2 cu is/does =AB3xamgu being
> good=BB3]1"
> and the second one as
> "lo any/some (3me amongst those that are mi I, me [type-of] gerku
> dog(s))3)2 cu is/does =AB4xamgu being good=BB4]1"
>
> Yes, "lo mi gerku" meaning "my dog" is quite handy, but why it breaks the
> logic of anything learnt before ?
> mi gerku means "I'm a dog" and when it is used as a sumti in the phrase
> <lo mi gerku cu xamgu>
> it must mean <"I'm a dog" is good> whatever that means.
>
> "me mi gerku" (my dog) has much more sense as it clear resembles "prenu
> gerku" (person's dog).
>
> I feel that the "rule" of transforming "I am" into "mine" when adding "lo=
"
> is absolutely alien to other lojbanic rules.
>
> On Thursday, August 4, 2011 6:10:49 PM UTC+4, Kevin Reid wrote:
> On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:47, najrut wrote:
>
>> > But ... is it anyway possible to form tanru with pro-sumti included ?
>>
>> It is possible as Jorge Llamb=EDas explained, with "me <sumti>" which is=
 a
>> conversion to the selbri "x1 is <sumti>".
>>
>>   dei         me mi    notci
>>   This [is a] Kevinish message.
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Reid                                  <http://switchb.org/kpreid/>
>>
>>  --
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I don&#39;t think it&#39;s actually saying &quot;mine&quot;. =A0From what I=
 understand {lo mi gerku} is equivalent to {lo gerku pe mi}. =A0{pe} <i>can=
</i>=A0imply ownership when context would give that impression, but really =
it only means association.<div>

<br></div><div>e.g. {lo mi mamta} =3D {lo mamta pe mi} =3D &quot;the mother=
 associated with me&quot;. =A0I don&#39;t own her. =A0She is just associate=
d with me.=A0</div><div>but {lo mi re&#39;azda} =3D {lo re&#39;azda pe mi} =
=3D &quot;my house&quot;. =A0That last &quot;=3D&quot; isn&#39;t true stric=
tly, it&#39;s just inferred from context. =A0It could also be &quot;that ho=
use I sold (because I&#39;m a realtor talking to a co-worker)&quot;, etc...=
</div>

<div><br></div><div>As for your original question. =A0The difference is tha=
t {me mi} is saying &quot;one of those things that are mi&quot;. =A0So tech=
nically (IMO):</div><div>lo mi gerku cu xamgu =3D the dog that is associate=
d with me is good</div>

<div>lo me mi gerku cu xamgu =3D the dog that is associated with one of the=
 things that is &quot;me&quot; is good. =A0(though really &quot;one of&quot=
; is too strict since we&#39;re using {lo})<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:14 AM, najrut <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ruler11post@gmail.com">ruler11post@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

This makes things even more strange.<div>Now tell me what is the difference=
 between</div><div>&quot;lo mi gerku cu xamgu&quot; and &quot;lo me mi gerk=
u cu xamgu&quot; ?<br>The first one is translated as<br>&quot;lo any/some m=
i gerku dog(s) [of] I, me)2 cu is/does =AB3xamgu being good=BB3]1&quot;</di=
v>

<div>and the second one as<br>&quot;lo any/some (3me amongst those that are=
 mi I, me [type-of] gerku dog(s))3)2 cu is/does =AB4xamgu being good=BB4]1&=
quot;<br><br>Yes, &quot;lo mi gerku&quot; meaning &quot;my dog&quot; is qui=
te handy, but why it breaks the logic of anything learnt before ?</div>

<div>mi gerku means &quot;I&#39;m a dog&quot; and when it is used as a sumt=
i in the phrase</div><div>&lt;lo mi gerku cu xamgu&gt;=A0<br></div><div>it =
must mean &lt;&quot;I&#39;m a dog&quot; is good&gt; whatever that means.</d=
iv>

<div><br></div><div>&quot;me mi gerku&quot; (my dog) has much more sense as=
 it clear resembles &quot;prenu gerku&quot; (person&#39;s dog).</div><div><=
br></div><div>I feel that the &quot;rule&quot; of transforming &quot;I am&q=
uot; into &quot;mine&quot; when adding &quot;lo&quot; is absolutely alien t=
o other lojbanic rules.</div>

<div class=3D"im"><div><br>On Thursday, August 4, 2011 6:10:49 PM UTC+4, Ke=
vin Reid wrote:<br>On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:47, najrut wrote:</div><div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<p>&gt; But ... is it anyway possible to form tanru with pro-sumti included=
 ?</p><p>It is possible as Jorge Llamb=EDas explained, with &quot;me &lt;su=
mti&gt;&quot; which is a conversion to the selbri &quot;x1 is &lt;sumti&gt;=
&quot;.</p>

<p>=A0 dei =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 me mi =A0 =A0notci<br>=A0 This [is a] Kevinish m=
essage. =A0</p><p>-- <br>Kevin Reid =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&lt;<a href=3D"http://switchb.org/kpreid/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://switchb.org/kpreid/</a>&gt;</p>

<p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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<br>=20
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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