Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:42775) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RPjCb-0005pq-3G; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:11:11 -0800 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf6342160wwf.16 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ihwXbSioEhPeUfQiBYoi8kgr3A6GbNEgSOhrZBC0Mz8=; b=vlFEpwlOd8o823KCfb6oIOUVKXfxr1elfiQBlRMlRoNDFfgsJ0P2mXCq0y+vT0XfN4 cuQviioUhmB/HTRKagL2L3q3ODXEQ+DuPBIjKBjoKd2N/3lQvxqSVAttJYOqJW3MyCwK is0CoBY1ds2HYn72X9nc9sV25UeZHTyj5hpRA= Received: by 10.216.4.197 with SMTP id 47mr674827wej.59.1321225850439; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.26.130 with SMTP id c2ls542446eea.7.canary; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.4.203 with SMTP id 51mr1149931eej.17.1321225848243; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.4.203 with SMTP id 51mr1149930eej.17.1321225848123; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f178.google.com (mail-ey0-f178.google.com [209.85.215.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d10si11799444eed.3.2011.11.13.15.10.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.178; Received: by mail-ey0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 13so4983369eye.37 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.16.97 with SMTP id g73mr1534640eeg.73.1321225847066; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.97.77 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:10:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201110180809.20219.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:10:45 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: How to say "face down" or "facing" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Fr=F6jd?= To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e65a0f5a484f1f04b1a5dd89 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 21877 --0016e65a0f5a484f1f04b1a5dd89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From wikipedia: Terms_for_anatomical_location which I think could interest most jbopli: "Standard *anatomical terms of location* are employed in science which deal with the anatomyof animals to avoid ambiguities which might otherwise arise. They are not language-specific, and thus require no translation. They are universal terms that may be readily understood by zoologists who speak any language. While these terms are standardized within specific fields of biology, they can differ dramatically from one discipline to another. Differences in terminology remain a problem that, to some extent, still separates the fields of zoological anatomy (sometimes called zootomy) and human (medical) anatomy (sometimes called androtomy ). The Craniata (vertebrates) share a substantial heritage of common structure, allowing much of the same terminology to be used for all of them. It is necessary for this terminology to be based on the anatomy of the animal in a standard way to avoid ambiguities such as might occur if a word such as "top" were used, which might designate the head of a human but the left or right side of a flounder ." 2011/11/12 jongausib > This is above my level of lojban I think, but couldn't we try to make > more exact anatomical definitions of directions and positions > (especially of the human body)? > Such definitions would be very useful as parts of tanru/lujvo. > I'm really interested in the movements of human bodies, and I really > enjoy watching parkour, skateboarding, gymnastics, martial arts, yoga, > dancing etc etc. > Of course you could just borrow words from each discipline (fu'ivla) > when you need to describe a special type of movement/trick, but I also > think that lojban has the potential of creating a more universal > language of movements. At least such lujvos would be very useful to > describe common positions/movements like squatting, kneeling, lying > face down/up, but also perhaps to describe more complex movements like > different kind of cartwheels, volts, rotations, somersaults, ollie, > kong, lotus position, martial techniques etc etc etc. > > The starting-point could be : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location#Directional_ter= ms > . > > ok, you may think I'm too ambitious and that it's better to leave > everything vague than to be too normative, but if everything is left > vague you'll never be able to be precise when you want to. And I would > really appreciate if you with better skills than me could translate > the anatomical concepts in the wikipedia article (linked above) into > lojban. > > /a'o. ki'ecai mi'e jongausib > > > On 23 Okt, 02:21, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > Yes, but of course you are to the side of something (for example, you > are > > to the side of the bed from the reference frame of a fly on the wall > who is > > facing an adjacent wall). In fact you are to the side of infinitely ma= ny > > things. But since you are not specifying the selmla or the velmla, we > > really don't care what they are. We are merely extracting the termla a= s > a > > useful way of specifying your orientation. (But I didn't mean for you t= o > > lose the lo ckana in the x2 of vreta. That should still be there -- "m= i > > vreta lo ckana fi'o termla vo'e", for example). > > > > --gejyspa > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd >wrote: > > > > > you mean termla? mi vreta fi'o termla lo ckana (that would be somethi= ng > > > like "I lie facing the bed to the side of something"?) > > > > > 2011/10/18 Michael Turniansky > > > > >> Fair point! termla, of course. Thanks for the correction. > > > > >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Luke Bergen >wrote: > > > > >>> the hell do locks have to do with anything? zo'o > > > > >>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Michael Turniansky < > > >>> mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >>>> I would think you would want "...fi'o telmla lo ckana [/lo > loldi]" > > >>>> But maybe that's just me. > > >>>> --gejyspa > > > > >>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Pierre Abbat >wrote: > > > > >>>>> On Tuesday 18 October 2011 05:42:18 Sebastian Fr=F6jd wrote: > > >>>>> > I'm not proficient enough in lojban to help you with this one. = I > just > > >>>>> > notice that in swedish you almost never say that you're lying > face up > > >>>>> or > > >>>>> > face down. Instead you say that you're "lying on [your] back" o= r > > >>>>> "lying on > > >>>>> > [your] belly". Perhaps that's easier to express in lojban. > > > > >>>>> That would be "mi vreta fi le trixe" or "mi vreta fi le crane", > but x3 > > >>>>> of "vreta" is not defined (x3 of "sanli" is, but not "zutse"). > > > > >>>>> The directions "anterior" and "posterior" don't match the > direction of > > >>>>> locomotion in humans the same way they do in most mammals. How is > this > > >>>>> expressed in Lojban? > > > > >>>>> Pierre > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. > > >>>>> J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. > > > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e > > >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > >>>>> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > > >>>>> . > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > >>>>> For more options, visit this group at > > >>>>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > >>>> -- > > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > >>>> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > >>>> For more options, visit this group at > > >>>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > >>> -- > > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. > > >>> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > >>> For more options, visit this group at > > >>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > >> -- > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > > >> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > >> For more options, visit this group at > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m > . > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016e65a0f5a484f1f04b1a5dd89 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From wikipedia: Terms_for_anatomical_location which I think could intere= st most jbopli:

"Standard anatomical<= /a> terms of location are employed in science which deal with the anatomy o= f animals<= /a> to avoid ambiguities which might otherwise arise. They are not=20 language-specific, and thus require no translation. They are universal=20 terms that may be readily understood by zoologists who speak any language.

While these terms are standardized within specific fields of biology, they can differ dramatically from one discipline to another.=20 Differences in terminology remain a problem that, to some extent, still=20 separates the fields of zoological anatomy (sometimes called zootomy) and human= (medical) anatomy (sometimes called androtomy).

The Cr= aniata (vertebrates) share a substantial heritage of common structure,=20 allowing much of the same terminology to be used for all of them. It is=20 necessary for this terminology to be based on the anatomy of the animal=20 in a standard way to avoid ambiguities such as might occur if a word=20 such as "top" were used, which might designate the head of a human but the left or = right side of a flounder."

2011/11/12 jongausib <<= a href=3D"mailto:so.cool.ogi@gmail.com">so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>
This is above my level of lojban I think, but couldn't we try to make more exact anatomical definitions of directions and positions
(especially of the human body)?
Such definitions would be very useful as parts of tanru/lujvo.
I'm really interested in the movements of human bodies, and I really enjoy watching parkour, skateboarding, gymnastics, martial arts, yoga,
dancing etc etc.
Of course you could just borrow words from each discipline (fu'ivla) when you need to describe a special type of movement/trick, but I also
think that lojban has the potential of creating a more universal
language of movements. At least such lujvos would be very useful to
describe common positions/movements like squatting, kneeling, lying
face down/up, but also perhaps to describe more complex movements like
different kind of cartwheels, volts, rotations, somersaults, ollie,
kong, lotus position, martial techniques etc etc etc.

The starting-point could be :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_term= s_of_location#Directional_terms.

ok, you may think I'm too ambitious and that it's better to leave everything vague than to be too normative, but if everything is left
vague you'll never be able to be precise when you want to. And I would<= br> really appreciate if you with better skills than me could translate
the anatomical concepts in the wikipedia article (linked above) into
lojban.

/a'o. ki'ecai mi'e jongausib


On 23 Okt, 02:21, Michael Turniansky <mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> =A0 Yes, but of course you are to the side of something (for example, = you are
> to the side of the bed from the reference frame of =A0a fly on the wal= l who is
> facing an adjacent wall). =A0In fact you are to the side of infinitely= many
> things. =A0But since you are not specifying the selmla or the velmla, = we
> really don't care what they are. =A0We are merely extracting the t= ermla as a
> useful way of specifying your orientation. (But I didn't mean for = you to
> lose the lo ckana in the x2 of vreta. =A0That should still be there --= "mi
> vreta lo ckana fi'o termla vo'e", for example).
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd <so.cool....@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > you mean termla? mi vreta fi'o termla lo ckana (that would be= something
> > like "I lie facing the bed to the side of something"?)<= br> >
> > 2011/10/18 Michael Turniansky <mturnian...@gmail.com>
>
> >> =A0 Fair point! =A0termla, of course. =A0Thanks for the corre= ction.
>
> >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> the hell do locks have to do with anything? zo'o
>
> >>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Michael Turniansky <<= br>
> >>> mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> =A0 =A0I would think you would want "...fi'o= telmla lo ckana [/lo loldi]"
> >>>> But maybe that's just me.
> >>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
>
> >>>> =A0 On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Pierre Abb= at <p...@phma.optus.nu>wrot= e:
>
> >>>>> On Tuesday 18 October 2011 05:42:18 Sebastian Fr= =F6jd wrote:
> >>>>> > I'm not proficient enough in lojban to h= elp you with this one. I just
> >>>>> > notice that in swedish you almost never say = that you're lying face up
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> > face down. Instead you say that you're &= quot;lying on [your] back" or
> >>>>> "lying on
> >>>>> > [your] belly". Perhaps that's easie= r to express in lojban.
>
> >>>>> That would be "mi vreta fi le trixe" or= "mi vreta fi le crane", but x3
> >>>>> of "vreta" is not defined (x3 of "= sanli" is, but not "zutse").
>
> >>>>> The directions "anterior" and "pos= terior" don't match the direction of
> >>>>> locomotion in humans the same way they do in most= mammals. How is this
> >>>>> expressed in Lojban?
>
> >>>>> Pierre
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegr= ates.
> >>>>> J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada.=
>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google
> >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com<= /a>
> >>>>> .
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>>>>
lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>>>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-b= eginners?hl=3Den.
>
> >>>> =A0 --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed = to the Google
> >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.=
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-begin= ners?hl=3Den.
>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups
> >>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners= ?hl=3Den.
>
> >> =A0--
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups
> >> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>
> > =A0--
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .

--
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