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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: I want an apple
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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{jai djica} is the wrong way of doing the raising, because the x1 is not an
event. The proper way of doing the raising with the x1 of djica as the x1
of the result is unfortunately extremely clunky: {se jai se djica}.

Philosophically however you're right.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 5:48 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it's because in natural languages "I want an apple" is a
> mental abbreviation. Lojban tries to deal with implicit things like
> that. As you quoted, wanting an object is wanting to possess or do
> something else with an object. So it's more logical definition to
> define {djica} in one way instead of making it ambiguous. You have to
> simple ways to overcome it: {mi jai djica lo plise}, {mi ctidji lo
> plise}, {mi djica tu'a lo plise}, {mi djica lo nu citka lo plise} or
> even {mi plisyctidji} :)
>
> mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> On Nov 29, 11:19 pm, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Someone (David Gowers?) recently (Aug. 17, 2011?) wrote:
> >
> > "You have an object in troci x2, but troci x2 is an abstraction. This is
> > the same problem as with {mi djica lo plise} -- you don't desire an
> apple,
> > you desire to possess an apple, or eat an apple... This is known as sumti
> > raising. You need to put an abstraction in x2, then you will not be
> > sumti-raising -- and will make sense, besides."
> >
> > I've wondered about this before. Why is wanting an object called
> > sumti-raising? Why must the object (x2?) of {djica} be an abstraction? Is
> > it simply because that's how the word was defined? If so, why was it
> > defined that way?
> >
> > stevo
>
> --
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> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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>
>

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{jai djica} is the wrong way of doing the raising, because the x1 is not an=
 event. The proper way of doing the raising with the x1 of djica as the x1 =
of the result is unfortunately extremely clunky: {se jai se djica}.<br><br>
Philosophically however you&#39;re right.<br><br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e latros<b=
r><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 5:48 PM, ianek <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:janek37@gmail.com">janek37@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">I think it&#39;s because in natural languag=
es &quot;I want an apple&quot; is a<br>
mental abbreviation. Lojban tries to deal with implicit things like<br>
that. As you quoted, wanting an object is wanting to possess or do<br>
something else with an object. So it&#39;s more logical definition to<br>
define {djica} in one way instead of making it ambiguous. You have to<br>
simple ways to overcome it: {mi jai djica lo plise}, {mi ctidji lo<br>
plise}, {mi djica tu&#39;a lo plise}, {mi djica lo nu citka lo plise} or<br=
>
even {mi plisyctidji} :)<br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e ianek<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Nov 29, 11:19=A0pm, MorphemeAddict &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lytl...@gmail.c=
om">lytl...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Someone (David Gowers?) recently (Aug. 17, 2011?) wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;You have an object in troci x2, but troci x2 is an abstraction. =
This is<br>
&gt; the same problem as with {mi djica lo plise} -- you don&#39;t desire a=
n apple,<br>
&gt; you desire to possess an apple, or eat an apple... This is known as su=
mti<br>
&gt; raising. You need to put an abstraction in x2, then you will not be<br=
>
&gt; sumti-raising -- and will make sense, besides.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;ve wondered about this before. Why is wanting an object called<b=
r>
&gt; sumti-raising? Why must the object (x2?) of {djica} be an abstraction?=
 Is<br>
&gt; it simply because that&#39;s how the word was defined? If so, why was =
it<br>
&gt; defined that way?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; stevo<br>
<br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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/>
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-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



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