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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: I want an apple
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On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 5:48 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it's because in natural languages "I want an apple" is a
> mental abbreviation. Lojban tries to deal with implicit things like
> that. As you quoted, wanting an object is wanting to possess or do
> something else with an object. So it's more logical definition to
> define {djica} in one way instead of making it ambiguous.



> You have to
> simple ways to overcome it:


Hunh? What does this mean? Is the first "to" just a typo?


> {mi jai djica lo plise}, {mi ctidji lo
> plise}, {mi djica tu'a lo plise}, {mi djica lo nu citka lo plise} or
> even {mi plisyctidji} :)
>
> mu'o mi'e ianek
>

stevo

>
> On Nov 29, 11:19 pm, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Someone (David Gowers?) recently (Aug. 17, 2011?) wrote:
> >
> > "You have an object in troci x2, but troci x2 is an abstraction. This is
> > the same problem as with {mi djica lo plise} -- you don't desire an
> apple,
> > you desire to possess an apple, or eat an apple... This is known as sumti
> > raising. You need to put an abstraction in x2, then you will not be
> > sumti-raising -- and will make sense, besides."
> >
> > I've wondered about this before. Why is wanting an object called
> > sumti-raising? Why must the object (x2?) of {djica} be an abstraction? Is
> > it simply because that's how the word was defined? If so, why was it
> > defined that way?
> >
> > stevo
>
> --
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> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
>

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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 5:48 PM, ianek <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:janek37@gmail.com">janek37@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width:=
 1px; border-left-style: solid;" class=3D"gmail_quote">

I think it&#39;s because in natural languages &quot;I want an apple&quot; i=
s a<br>
mental abbreviation. Lojban tries to deal with implicit things like<br>
that. As you quoted, wanting an object is wanting to possess or do<br>
something else with an object. So it&#39;s more logical definition to<br>
define {djica} in one way instead of making it ambiguous. </blockquote><div=
>=A0</div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex=
; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-lef=
t-style: solid;" class=3D"gmail_quote">

You have to<br>
simple ways to overcome it: </blockquote><div>=A0</div><div>Hunh? What does=
 this mean? Is the first &quot;to&quot; just a typo? </div><div>=A0</div><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-lef=
t-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: sol=
id;" class=3D"gmail_quote">

{mi jai djica lo plise}, {mi ctidji lo<br>
plise}, {mi djica tu&#39;a lo plise}, {mi djica lo nu citka lo plise} or<br=
>
even {mi plisyctidji} :)<br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e ianek<br>
<div><div></div></div></blockquote><div>=A0</div><div>stevo=A0</div><blockq=
uote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-col=
or: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;" =
class=3D"gmail_quote">

<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Nov 29, 11:19=A0pm, MorphemeAddict &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lytl...@gmail.c=
om">lytl...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Someone (David Gowers?) recently (Aug. 17, 2011?) wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;You have an object in troci x2, but troci x2 is an abstraction. =
This is<br>
&gt; the same problem as with {mi djica lo plise} -- you don&#39;t desire a=
n apple,<br>
&gt; you desire to possess an apple, or eat an apple... This is known as su=
mti<br>
&gt; raising. You need to put an abstraction in x2, then you will not be<br=
>
&gt; sumti-raising -- and will make sense, besides.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;ve wondered about this before. Why is wanting an object called<b=
r>
&gt; sumti-raising? Why must the object (x2?) of {djica} be an abstraction?=
 Is<br>
&gt; it simply because that&#39;s how the word was defined? If so, why was =
it<br>
&gt; defined that way?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; stevo<br>
<br>
</div></div><font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
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roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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