Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:64124) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1ReS2Q-0007Je-Qn; Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:53:28 -0800 Received: by vcbfk26 with SMTP id fk26sf6147556vcb.16 for ; Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:53:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:reply-to:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=78gIGsnJdb62nbYKigH4ItHQBJnnoaOXdpWR28V4LNw=; b=djSxVN0DuYdQkShmWZWCQcKU2TeBW9M74nlU5IeOjiQZi/k3pinpUJK4cdjKmiY//N VVh/MxN9ps+Kb4pCL7AtPUF8PDq9JrMZwoD/YhUf7uxEwL7/mZU3pdINn/ilkYW95Al5 Q7Emh2xGt77VhC4jBMAZz3DCIhh1Q5dnkYMJg= Received: by 10.52.76.8 with SMTP id g8mr2618710vdw.16.1324734795881; Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:53:15 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.149.17 with SMTP id r17ls10348892vcv.0.gmail; Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.65.165 with SMTP id y5mr2045712vds.17.1324734795184; Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:53:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:53:13 -0800 (PST) From: gleki Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <12277388.1531.1324734793663.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqgn9> In-Reply-To: <7e6a9b99-4c81-4f0a-aa84-179743f3ae79@n6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com> References: <15238276.422.1324624656233.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqgn9> <8e27c354-efb5-41e2-80ab-56180105a1bc@d10g2000vbk.googlegroups.com> <13908655.150.1324725054311.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqie2> <7e6a9b99-4c81-4f0a-aa84-179743f3ae79@n6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Jingle Bells song MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1530_15872553.1324734793662" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 8224 ------=_Part_1530_15872553.1324734793662 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:16:41 PM UTC+4, ianek wrote: > > > > On 24 Gru, 12:10, gleki wrote: > > > Some notes: > > > * shouldn't it be {te tonga} or {se janbe}? The former is easier to > > > fit in the rhythm. > > > > I agree that in lojban the bell and the sound it emits are > interconnected. > > But just singing {janbe lo'e} is a bit strange. > > What would you achieve by {lo'e} here? I don't get it. > I just mean that sound and bell meanings are in one gismu therefore in lojban we can do with only one word as opposed to English. So {janbe lo'e} is {bell producing typical sound} as x2 of janbe is the sound so there is no need in tonga in such case. > > > But if you have any alternative translations please post. I'll accept > any > > precious amendment. > > I was suggesting just slipping an extra {te}: > > .u'i lo janbe ku > te tonga ca lo nu > > as it's easier to fit than {lo se janbe}. > > Yes, it is. Although it breaks the rhythm > > I'm afraid that each verse must begin with ni'o or .i > > Is it so ? > > I asked the same thing once and it seems it's accepted to drop {i}/ > {ni'o} at the beginnings of song verses. > My thread: > https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/2dbdffb929cba23e/ > > > Any mistakes ? > > Any suggestions for next verses ? > > {je} and its friends are deceitful. They bind all the arguments of > connected selbri (I'm not sure what happens when they have different > numbers of arguments). So when you say {janbe je vitno}, it implies > that the sound of bells and the property in which they're eternal is > the same thing, and I doubt you can pass sound as a property. > > Is it really so ? If {je} binds all arguments if selbri then how can the phrase 7.6) melbi je cmalu nixli bo ckule exist ? Are melbi2 and cmalu2 now the same ? As for selbri with different number of arguments they definitely don't get extra arguments. Compare 6.7) ta blanu je zdani And {vitno} means x1 is permanent/lasting/[eternal] in property x2 (ka) by standard x3 [time-span/expectant one]. Does x1 need to be a property ? se janbe + vitno = being a sound produced by a bell and being permanent What's wrong ? Not considering this song what is your translation of the phrase {eternal sound produced by a bell} ? Also, I suggest changing the second half of the refrain to > > u'i se salcarce fi > lo pamei xirma ku > > Unless you like it less than your version, of course. > > OK, now there are two authors. .ui. I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement. Then in your version you can change the first {u'i} to {ni'o} to avoid tautology -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/iJYKJ3a1hYAJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. 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On Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:16:41 PM UTC+4, ianek wrote:

On 24 Gru, 12:10, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Some notes:
> > * shouldn't it be {te tonga} or {se janbe}? The former is eas= ier to
> > fit in the rhythm.
>
> I agree that in lojban the bell and the sound it emits are interco= nnected.
> But just singing {janbe lo'e} is a bit strange.

What would you achieve by {lo'e} here? I don't get it.
I just mean that sound and bell meanings are in one g= ismu therefore in lojban we can do with only one word as opposed to English= .
So {janbe lo'e} is {bell producing typical sound} as x2 of janb= e is the sound so there is no need in tonga in such case.
 <= /div>

> But if you have any alternative translations please post. I'll acc= ept any
> precious amendment.

I was suggesting just slipping an extra {te}:

.u'i lo janbe ku
te tonga ca lo nu

as it's easier to fit than {lo se janbe}.

Yes, it is. Although it breaks the rhythm 
=
> I'm afraid that each vers= e must begin with ni'o or .i
> Is it so ?

I asked the same thing once and it seems it's accepted to drop {i}/
{ni'o} at the beginnings of song verses.
My thread: https://groups.go= ogle.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/2dbdffb= 929cba23e/

> Any mistakes ?
> Any suggestions for next verses ?

{je} and its friends are deceitful. They bind all the arguments of
connected selbri (I'm not sure what happens when they have different
numbers of arguments). So when you say {janbe je vitno}, it implies
that the sound of bells and the property in which they're eternal is
the same thing, and I doubt you can pass sound as a property.

Is it really so ? If {je} binds all arguments if selb= ri then how can the phrase
7.=
6)   melbi je cmalu nixli bo ckule
exist ?
Are melbi2 and cmalu2 now the same ?
As f= or selbri with different number of arguments they definitely don't get extr= a arguments.
Compare
6.7)   ta blanu je zdani

And {vitno} means x1 is permanent/last= ing/[eternal] in property x2 (ka) by standard x3 [time-span/expectant one].=
Does x1 need to be a property ?
se janbe + vitno =3D b= eing a sound produced by a bell and being permanent
What's wrong = ?  
Not considering this song what is your translation of th= e phrase {eternal sound produced by a bell} ?

Also, I suggest changing the second hal= f of the refrain to

u'i se salcarce fi
lo pamei xirma ku

Unless you like it less than your version, of course.

 
OK, now there are two authors. .ui.&= nbsp;
I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement.
= Then in your version you can change the first {u'i} to {ni'o} to avoid taut= ology 

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