Received: from mail-bk0-f61.google.com ([209.85.214.61]:39911) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr5EJ-0003z1-TL; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:10:03 -0800 Received: by bkaq10 with SMTP id q10sf2033712bka.16 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:x-mailer:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=SQfGKS/sxJS8+KCg/cQK1ZLs4qIlDIhG1Ob4j3tiF+U=; b=4AZ4W9Xs9510ocp9MAuiKvq8JMEM4xnh/xXaTKKcdxTmP1AkzfwWVRamzkHuuYr+hl /O6soVhjJj+ChKO0fQ9Lbl0kybw9vYqkdiAji+OqrqyRAQElDTnl7CtdmpbR4kU8Tmlb DM440iLO+u0XrFuFzvgv2Q0Oq450MB/pUEWe4= Received: by 10.204.155.140 with SMTP id s12mr522913bkw.8.1327745373049; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:33 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.4 with SMTP id m4ls9933803bkw.1.gmail; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.0.84 with SMTP id 20mr907106bka.2.1327745372274; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.0.84 with SMTP id 20mr907105bka.2.1327745372253; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f53.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f53.google.com [209.85.215.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k19si2334117bko.1.2012.01.28.02.09.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.53; Received: by lahd3 with SMTP id d3so1685956lah.26 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.105.175 with SMTP id gn15mr5293923lab.23.1327745371843; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoga (c-7141e353.027-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se. [83.227.65.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ix6sm8264658lab.11.2012.01.28.02.09.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:09:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:09:28 +0100 From: Daniel Brockman To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4E295493-4756-49B0-80B5-8BA6AC86E133@lojban.org.uk> References: <17420344.123.1326349669489.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqcb25> <57CDF052-0498-43F6-9B02-80622D00E054@lojban.org.uk> <796CDD9E-0B54-45CA-B1FA-55A25259411E@lojban.org.uk>

<6DC8CD59-4380-46DE-8223-65FCA6B99131@lojban.org.uk>

<4E295493-4756-49B0-80B5-8BA6AC86E133@lojban.org.uk> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] iOS/Android app? X-Mailer: sparrow 1.5 (build 1043.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 17294 Oh, it=92s not even that you=92re going to create anything on the iBlah. Yo= u=92re just converting the CLL into it? Haha, then that=92s a no-brainer, I= think. On Saturday, January 28, 2012 at 11:04 AM, kozmikreis wrote: > This is the point I'm trying to get across, politics and pro- vs anti-pro= prietary arguments (however valid) aside - the suggestion to use a closed f= ormat _in_addition_ to the open formats is not an exercise in exclusivity. = Far from it. I believe it's in the common interest to have the CLL availabl= e to as wide an audience as possible, and should conversion to proprietary = formats _in_addition_ to the open formats be non-detrimental to the CLL's a= vailability which clearly in this case it wouldn't be, then why not? > =20 > You make a case for not purchasing a closed-format consumption device bas= ed on its feature set. Good for you, I applaud your stance even though pers= onally I'm (currently) an Apple fan. To answer your question, no I cannot n= ame another format an iBook can be transferred to whether it is an Apple-ex= clusive format or not. As far as I know it is completely closed. I don't se= e the relevance of this point though. The CLL source files are, and would r= emain, open. > =20 > kozmikreis > =20 > =20 > =20 > On 28 Jan 2012, at 09:46, Daniel Brockman wrote: > =20 > > dude, who=92s saying you would be forbidden from converting it into ano= ther format? > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > On Saturday, January 28, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > =20 > > > That analogy doesn't work. Hard-copy isn't a format, is a presentatio= n medium. > > > =20 > > > .epub is a format, as is .pdf. .html, .doc, .odf, etc. An e-reader is= a presentation medium, as is a desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet, etc. > > > =20 > > > And even if we were to allow that a traditional book is both a format= /and/ a presentation medium (which I don't), scanners have existed for yea= rs, and are perfectly capable of being used to transfer a book's contents t= o any kind of other medium's format, usually with no loss of information du= ring the process. > > > =20 > > > Is there /any/ other format to which iBooks are capable of being tran= sferred to? Can you name one format that is not only available to Apple dev= ices to which an iBook can be converted? > > > =20 > > > I'm against proprietary formats in general. I honestly don't care wha= t "wonderful" features the format may provide. There's is no way I'm buying= a $800 device just to be able to access, literally, /one/ thing I couldn't= otherwise. Especially since I already have a tablet, a smartphone, a lapto= p, and a desktop. > > > =20 > > > The point is, limiting distribution to noly those who have "X", means= that any one who doesn't is automatically excluded. Especially for a langu= age, /any/ kind of exclusion of people is BAD. I'm not saying I wouldn't en= joy having such features- they may be valuable, they may not, I have no opi= nion. What I'm saying is that whether or not such a thing exists, I /won't/= have it, because of the proprietary nature of the item. I happen to be dea= d set against participating in the money-vacuum that is Apple Inc. (my Andr= oid tablet has equivalent specs to the iPad 2 and is $500(!) cheaper), but = my stance is the same regardless of the company behind it. > > > =20 > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 1:43 AM, kozmikreis wrote: > > > > Extending your line of reasoning, should we immediately cease distr= ibuting hard copies of the CLL because the format isn't compatible with e-r= eaders? :-p > > > > =20 > > > > Yes the iBook format is only compatible with a limited selection of= devices, does that somehow invalidate taking advantage of the format in ad= dition to the plethora of open formats the new CLL can be transformed into?= =20 > > > > =20 > > > > kozmikreis > > > > =20 > > > > =20 > > > > =20 > > > > On 28 Jan 2012, at 00:10, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > > > Not to mention the proprietary nature of the format that automati= cally excludes anyone without an iPad, iPod Touch, or iPhone. > > > > > =20 > > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:26 PM, kozmikreis wrote: > > > > > > That is true, but is missing the point of the additional richne= ss the proprietary iBook format allows for such as interactive multiple-cho= ice questions, audio clips, video clips, and other learning aids that might= be attractive in an enhanced version of the CLL :-) =20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > kozmikreis > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > On 27 Jan 2012, at 21:32, Aaron Hawryluk wrote: > > > > > > > Or, if there's an html version in existence, it could just be= ported to .epub with Calibre... > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II X. =20 > > > > > > > On Jan 27, 2012 6:50 AM, "CosmicRay" wrote: > > > > > > > > Those were very much my thoughts too - that porting a regul= arly updated open source formatted book into a proprietary format was going= to be awfully tough to keep up with. However, unlike apps, I think iBooks = are static once published. Authors don't push out a v1.x update after the f= act. With this in mind it's probably still worth forking the next stable CL= L major version and porting it, perhaps even embedding an errata section by= use of a web view that points back to the github repo in case of any major= boo-boos. > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > kozmikreis > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > On 24 Jan 2012, at 02:44, Joshua Proehl wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was just looking into the idea of creating a CLL iBook = as well! =20 > > > > > > > > > The problem that I see is that iBooks Author doesn't appe= ar to play very nicely with the idea of streaming data in from other files.= Which means that it's not really possible to script "convert the source fi= les into an iBook", but rather each change made to the source files would h= ave to be manually made to the iBook as well. Which is going to rapidly bec= ome painful. Further looking into is required however, as it would be a tru= ly incredible platform to use. > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > Josh > > > > > > > > > _____________________ > > > > > > > > > Instead of our drab slogging forth and back to the fishin= g boats, there's a reason to life! We can lift ourselves out of ignorance, = we can find ourselves as creatures of excellence and intelligence and skill= . We can be free! We can learn to fly! > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =97 Richard Bach, 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull,' 1970. > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:11, kozmikreis wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to trying that out, please let us know w= hen it's available. It'll be good when there's finally a Lojban-specific ap= p in the iTunes Store :-) > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > Regarding my conlanger meet-up app idea, I retain no ri= ghts to the idea should you or anyone else wants to implement it either sol= o or as a collaboration. > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > On a slightly related note, there's now a free iBooks A= uthor app in the Mac App Store for authoring rich content books for iPad co= nsumption. It looks ideal for creating and sharing educational textbooks. T= he CLL as an iBook would be a good place to start, once the latest changes = to it have been completed - thoughts anyone? =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > kozmikreis > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > On 22 Jan 2012, at 09:13, aryrain laubels wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have written a Lojban Dictionary in pure Objective = C, I am currently waiting for approval. I finished it a week or so ago but = posted it today. But some other applications would be interesting. > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:58 AM, kozmikreis wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > [repost, original seems to have been lost to the ae= ther] > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > I've got an Apple iOS Developer account and would b= e happy to have a hand in writing a Lojban app for iOS (and Android if I ca= n get the damn SDK and toolset stable), it's just I haven't thought of an a= pp idea that has anything better to it than those that already exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > My dev language of choice would probably be the Jav= aScript variant from Appcelerator, not that it's anything amazing, but it c= an compile to multiple platforms and takes away some of the suckage of Obje= ctive C. > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > One idea I had was perhaps a meet-up app for conlan= gers in general, whereby you tick the list of languages you speak or are le= arning to speak and perhaps your level of proficiency, and let it run in th= e background occasionally checking your location in to a central server. Wh= en someone else with a matching conlang interest is nearby the phone can al= ert you so you can meet up and say coi. Might be good for finding people to= practice with? > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > kozmikreis > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 Jan 2012, at 06:27, kalsa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > coi > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there any talk of making a lojbanic/lojban beg= inners ipod app? apps like flashcardlet are good for studying words, but i = was thinking maybe a more lojban specific app would help for people who are= already wanting to learn, getting to look at it on the go, or maybe to hea= r spoken lojban, or maybe just to make it more accessible to a wider variet= y of people. Just a thought. =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > co'o > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > -- =20 > > > > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to= the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@g= ooglegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-be= ginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe= @googlegroups.com (mailto:2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com)). > > > > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > -- =20 > > > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@goo= glegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-begi= nners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com). > > > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > -- =20 > > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googl= egroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginn= ers+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com (mailto:2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com)). > > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > -- =20 > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googleg= roups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginner= s+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com). > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.co= m/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > -- =20 > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegro= ups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googleg= roups.com (mailto:2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com)). > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/= group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > =20 > > > > > =20 > > > > > =20 > > > > > =20 > > > > > =20 > > > > > =20 > > > > > -- =20 > > > > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > > > > =20 > > > > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do z= o'o > > > > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > > > =20 > > > > > =20 > > > > > -- =20 > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroup= s.com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroup= s.com). > > > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > =20 > > > > =20 > > > > =20 > > > > =20 > > > > -- =20 > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.= com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsu= bscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroup= s.com (mailto:2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com)). > > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > -- =20 > > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > > =20 > > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > =20 > > > -- =20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m). > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > -- =20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com = (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com)= . > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban-beginners?hl=3Den. > =20 > =20 > =20 > -- =20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com (m= ailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an-beginners?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.