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Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:36:21 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj3wcgkv43w06v85f8Jyo1-d38-nu5TLd3g1YWGtvwFmRw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] "me too" in Lojban
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 06, 2012 14:26:16 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:22 AM, Janek <j-sz@o2.pl> wrote:
> > > On 6 March 2012 02:38, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > abu: mi nelci ti
> > > > by: ji'a go'i
> > >
> > > {go'ira'o}, not {go'i}
> >
> > No. It's just go'i.
> >
> > The expansion on the above is not
> >
> > abu: mi nelci ti
> > by: ji'a do nelci ti
> >
> > It is
> >
> > abu: mi nelci ti
> > by: ji'a mi nelci ti
>
> Since "mi" is not explicit in the sentence with "go'i", it still refers t=
o
> A.
> With "ra'o", the implicit "mi" would refer to B.
>
> If A pointed to something close to A but far from B and said "mi nelci ti=
",
> and B said "ji'a go'i ra'o", would B be stating that he likes something
> close
> to B and far from A?
>
> > ra'o is needed to distinguish between
> >
> > A: mi lumci le mi karce
> > B: mi go'i
> >
> > A: I wash my car.
> > B: I wash A=92s car.
>
> "go'i" with no subject would mean "A washes A's car".
>

My mistake. I was under the impression that go'i kept the referents the
same, such that

abu: xu do klama lo zarci
by: go'i

means

abu: xu do klama lo zarci
by: mi klama lo zarci

not

abu: xu do klama lo zarci
by: do klama lo zarci

whereas ra'o causes the sumti to be re-evaluated from the speaker's
perspective, such that

abu: xu do klama lo zarci
by: go'ira'o

means

abu: xu do klama lo zarci
by: do klama lo zarci

not

abu: xu do klama lo zarci
by: mi klama lo zarci


> > and
> >
> > A: mi lumci le mi karce
> > B: mi go'i ra'o
> >
> > A: I wash my car.
> > B: I wash B=92s car.
>
> --
> lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
>
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--=20
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Pierre A=
bbat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@phma.optus.nu">phma@phma.=
optus.nu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Tuesday, March 06, 2012 14:26:16 Jonathan Jones wrote:=
<br>
&gt; On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:22 AM, Janek &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j-sz@o2.p=
l">j-sz@o2.pl</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; On 6 March 2012 02:38, Jonathan Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeon=
us@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; &gt; &gt; abu: mi nelci ti<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; by: ji&#39;a go&#39;i<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; {go&#39;ira&#39;o}, not {go&#39;i}<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; No. It&#39;s just go&#39;i.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The expansion on the above is not<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; abu: mi nelci ti<br>
&gt; by: ji&#39;a do nelci ti<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; abu: mi nelci ti<br>
&gt; by: ji&#39;a mi nelci ti<br>
<br>
</div>Since &quot;mi&quot; is not explicit in the sentence with &quot;go&#3=
9;i&quot;, it still refers to A.<br>
With &quot;ra&#39;o&quot;, the implicit &quot;mi&quot; would refer to B.<br=
>
<br>
If A pointed to something close to A but far from B and said &quot;mi nelci=
 ti&quot;,<br>
and B said &quot;ji&#39;a go&#39;i ra&#39;o&quot;, would B be stating that =
he likes something close<br>
to B and far from A?<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; ra&#39;o is needed to distinguish between<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A: mi lumci le mi karce<br>
&gt; B: mi go&#39;i<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A: I wash my car.<br>
&gt; B: I wash A=92s car.<br>
<br>
</div>&quot;go&#39;i&quot; with no subject would mean &quot;A washes A&#39;=
s car&quot;.<br></blockquote><div><br>My mistake. I was under the impressio=
n that go&#39;i kept the referents the same, such that<br><br>abu: xu do kl=
ama lo zarci<br>
by: go&#39;i<br><br>means<br><br>abu: xu do klama lo zarci<br>by: mi klama =
lo zarci<br><br>not<br><br>abu: xu do klama lo zarci<br>by: do klama lo zar=
ci<br><br>whereas ra&#39;o causes the sumti to be re-evaluated from the spe=
aker&#39;s perspective, such that<br>
<br>abu: xu do klama lo zarci<br>by: go&#39;ira&#39;o<br><br>means<br><br>a=
bu: xu do klama lo zarci<br>by: do klama lo zarci<br><br>not <br><br>abu: x=
u do klama lo zarci<br>by: mi klama lo zarci<br><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A: mi lumci le mi karce<br>
&gt; B: mi go&#39;i ra&#39;o<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A: I wash my car.<br>
&gt; B: I wash B=92s car.<br>
<br>
</div><font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
lo ponse be lo mruli po&#39;o cu ga&#39;ezga roda lo ka dinko</font><br><di=
v><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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/>
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-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



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