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Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 18:10:14 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Let's do something like this for Lojban! From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Spam_score: 3.5 X-Spam_score_int: 35 X-Spam_bar: +++ X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. 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Content preview: On 3 March 2012 17:44, MorphemeAddict wrote: > > > 2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis >> >> On 3 March 2012 15:30, Remo Dentato wrote: >> > 2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis : >> >> I suggest starting with >> >> >> >> 2. mi me la .clalis. >> > >> > Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ? >> > BTW, {clalis} doesn't have the same sound of the orginal that is (if I >> > understood correctly) roughly equivalent to the Chinese "Chen Li" I'd >> > prefer {tcenlis} >> > >> >> The straightforward and realistic sentence would be {mi'e .clalis.}, >> I just considered that paralleling 2 and 3 helps understanding the >> sentence structure in 3 (as 2 and 4 in the original). >> >> This is the burden of translating an introduction to a different language. >> >> >> 3. ta me la .djan. >> > This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan. >> > >> >> Just consider how hard it is to figure out the sentence structure at >> first sight. >> Firstly, it is too long and too dissimilar from nearby sentences. >> Secondly, the >> concept of assignment is highly unexpected. To introduce it via >> illustrated >> examples, I would dedicate a whole sequence of examples to that single >> concept and employ at least one reassignment. >> >> Furthermore, when do you expect to use {ko'a} again? The girl is pointing >> all the time. And, in particular, in 16, she is talking to a guy who was >> absent >> in 3. >> >> >> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta >> > I would use the lujvo {selme'e} -> 4. ko'a selme'e zo .djan. >> > This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi >> > would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene}, >> > they would just guess it means "is named". >> > >> >> That is fine. But why are you avoiding the gismu? >> >> >> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series. >> > Not sure. I would prefer introducing {ko'a} and friends. >> > >> >> It is nice to introduce {ko'a}, but, as I said, [...] Content analysis details: (3.5 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (felipeg.assis[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FUZZY_CPILL BODY: Attempt to obfuscate words in spam 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 1.3 DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU Obfuscated reference to an erectile drug 2.2 DRUGS_ERECTILE Refers to an erectile drug 0.0 T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL To: misformatted and free email service Content-Length: 3983 On 3 March 2012 17:44, MorphemeAddict wrote: > > > 2012/3/3 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis >> >> On 3 March 2012 15:30, Remo Dentato wrote: >> > 2012/3/3 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >> >> I suggest starting with >> >> >> >> 2. mi me la .clalis. >> > >> > Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ? >> > BTW, {clalis} doesn't have the same sound of the orginal that is (if I >> > understood correctly) roughly equivalent to the Chinese "Chen Li" I'd >> > prefer {tcenlis} >> > >> >> The straightforward and realistic sentence would be {mi'e .clalis.}, >> I just considered that paralleling 2 and 3 helps understanding the >> sentence structure in 3 (as 2 and 4 in the original). >> >> This is the burden of translating an introduction to a different languag= e. >> >> >> 3. ta me la .djan. >> > This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan= . >> > >> >> Just consider how hard it is to figure out the sentence structure at >> first sight. >> Firstly, it is too long and too dissimilar from nearby sentences. >> Secondly, the >> concept of assignment is highly unexpected. To introduce it via >> illustrated >> examples, I would dedicate a whole sequence of examples to that single >> concept and employ at least one reassignment. >> >> Furthermore, when do you expect to use {ko'a} again? The girl is pointin= g >> all the time. And, in particular, in 16, she is talking to a guy who was >> absent >> in 3. >> >> >> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta >> > I would use the lujvo {selme'e} -> 4. ko'a selme'e zo .djan. >> > This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi >> > would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene}, >> > they would just guess it means "is named". >> > >> >> That is fine. But why are you avoiding the gismu? >> >> >> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series. >> > Not sure. I would prefer introducing {ko'a} and friends. >> > >> >> It is nice to introduce {ko'a}, but, as I said, that is infeasible witho= ut >> a dedicated story, or at such an early point of this one. >> >> >> Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion... >> >> >> >> In 12 we may do >> >> 12. lo prenu cu zvati tu >> > >> > My preference would be {vuku ko'e goi tu zvati} >> > >> > Using {tu} as zvati2 seems too prone to ambiguity. At least it should >> > be {lovu} so that it is clear you're talking about "there yonder". >> > >> >> Wouldn't the roles of zvati1 and zvati2 be clear from 10 and 11? >> Similarly, isn't it clear from the green circles that they are talking >> about >> position? >> >> To me, once you know {mi} or {do} you can figure out the sentence >> structure right away, which in this case would show the reader the >> flexibility of lojban demonstratives. > > > Showing flexibility at this early stage seems like showing off, i.e., a b= ad > thing. Once the learner becomes comfortable with a single way to express = an > idea, then you can add new ways, one at a time. This seems far too early = in > that process to me for demonstrating the capabilities of the language. > Repetition is much more important (and tedious). > But it is precisely for repetition that I am arguing, i.e., using {ta} all the time. I just pointed that these examples can eliminate possible assumptions that {ta} is person-specific, which makes things simpler, not more complex. mu'a si'a {barda} is flexible in that it can be used unchanged regardless o= f whether the x1 is singular or plural, person or non-person, etc. mu'o mi'e .asiz. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.