Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:44200) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S603k-0001it-N1; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:46 -0800 Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3sf1668331lag.16 for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nEFz9/BJ9POVHqR1K9+Pl3lk8wUFLd81TmJF+lceEQA=; b=BY28cI0ESBSxyUG/b7d7IFUfIojAQYGXmMEWzKccSajPleoywidhrNGO+0HD5q/I97 VUZbQbcx+E8KR9YtGqv0M6ySZ+w0L95n3NIED75f7bS76ENbu65wD49hpXhm0x3IseJm cAZyOe++qzzYtCww/MOYZDhi8+tAgUkQaQOno= Received: by 10.205.134.7 with SMTP id ia7mr149666bkc.27.1331300407309; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:07 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.4 with SMTP id m4ls5352755bkw.1.gmail; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.131.75 with SMTP id w11mr171670bks.0.1331300406242; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.131.75 with SMTP id w11mr171669bks.0.1331300406223; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-f46.google.com (mail-bk0-f46.google.com [209.85.214.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8si6038250bka.1.2012.03.09.05.40.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.46; Received: by bkcik5 with SMTP id ik5so1518136bkc.5 for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.130.150 with SMTP id t22mr924071bks.1.1331300405978; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 05:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.119.4 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:40:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F51EE97.4020005@plasmatix.com> References: <8929c895-6264-4ae8-b9ff-1d3b3094d404@gr6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <20120302180216.GP29980@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>

<4F5156CA.3040104@plasmatix.com> <4F51EE97.4020005@plasmatix.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:40:05 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: **JUNK** Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Let's do something like this for Lojban! From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Spam_score: 2.8 X-Spam_score_int: 28 X-Spam_bar: ++ X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Although, of course, most people would in actuality use "mi'e clalis", since la isn't necessary after a COI. But other than that, you are correct, Miles. Don't teach wrong. It's your job to model correct usage, especially to beginners. Just like you do with a baby learning language. (As for me, if I didn't want to use "ta mo", I'd probably use "ta du ma" rather than "ta me ma" (or if I wanted to be pedantic (read, a jerk), I'd use "ta cmima ma") But they are ALL just as vague. Just as the English is. When you say, "what is that?" pointing to a stick, you can receive the answer "long" or "brown". In lojban, you can receive "clani" or "bunre" to the "mo", or "lo clani/bunre" to the "ma". And they are all just as valid answers. So what? How can someone know what kind of answer you expect, unless you clarify it? (perhaps "ta cmima ma noi dacti klesi" might be a little clearer, perhaps not) --gejyspa [...] Content analysis details: (2.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mturniansky[at]gmail.com) -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [209.85.215.61 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FUZZY_CPILL BODY: Attempt to obfuscate words in spam 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 1.3 DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU Obfuscated reference to an erectile drug 2.2 DRUGS_ERECTILE Refers to an erectile drug 0.0 T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL To: misformatted and free email service Content-Length: 6860 Although, of course, most people would in actuality use "mi'e clalis", since la isn't necessary after a COI. But other than that, you are correct, Miles. Don't teach wrong. It's your job to model correct usage, especially to beginners. Just like you do with a baby learning language. (As for me, if I didn't want to use "ta mo", I'd probably use "ta du ma" rather than "ta me ma" (or if I wanted to be pedantic (read, a jerk), I'd use "ta cmima ma") But they are ALL just as vague. Just as the English is. When you say, "what is that?" pointing to a stick, you can receive the answer "long" or "brown". In lojban, you can receive "clani" or "bunre" to the "mo", or "lo clani/bunre" to the "ma". And they are all just as valid answers. So what? How can someone know what kind of answer you expect, unless you clarify it? (perhaps "ta cmima ma noi dacti klesi" might be a little clearer, perhaps not) --gejyspa On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Miles Forster wrote: > I understand you're reasoning, but teaching wrong lojban to a beginner, > especially when it can be avoided, seems like a bad idea. If you want to > stick to {la}, then why not use {mi'e la. clalis} instead? > > Am 03.03.2012 00:54, schrieb Jonathan Jones: > > I don't want to sound rude. > > That seems rather nit-picky. In my opinion it is always more important th= at > you're understood than that you are right. Especially in a language where > "What is that?" is {ta me ma} because {ta mo} is too vague. > > When I am speaking of you in Lojban, I refer to you as {la.mailz.}. I thi= nk > it would be more confusing to someone who has no knowledge of Lojban to u= se > {zo} in those places, which is correct, rather than using {la}, which jbo= pre > can understand. > > It's a pleasure to meet you. My name is .aionys. > mi.ui penmi.oinai do mi'e.aionys. > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Miles Forster wrote: >> >> You aren't called "someone called clalis", you're called "clalis". >> {mi se cmene zo .clalis} >> >> Am 03.03.2012 00:15, schrieb Jonathan Jones: >>> >>> Okay, here's the first half translated. Someone else work on the last >>> half while I see what I can do with vectors. >>> >>> 1. coi >>> 2. mi se cmene la.clalis. >>> 3. ko'a goi la.djan. >>> 4. ko'a se cmene la.djan. >>> 5. cy: coi.djan. >>> 6. mi ninmu >>> 7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu >>> 8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu >>> =A0 =A0dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu >>> 9. cy: ko'a nanmu >>> =A0 =A0dy: ko'e ninmu >>> 10. mi zvati ti >>> 11. do zvati ta >>> 12. ko'i zvati tu >>> 13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti >>> 14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti >>> 15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta >>> 16. cy: mi se cmene la.clalis. .ije ko'a se cmene la.djan. .i ma cmene = do >>> =A0 =A0 =A0sy:mi se cmene la.sam. >>> 17. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.sam. >>> =A0 =A0 =A0sy: mi ralte lo sedyta'u >>> 18. ti me lo mi sedyta'u .i mi ralte lo mi sedyta'u di'o lo xance .ik m= i >>> xanra'e lo mi sedyta'u >>> 19. cy: xu ta me lo do sedyta'u >>> =A0 =A0 =A0sy: go'i .i ti me lo mi sedyta'u >>> 20. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.djan. >>> =A0 =A0 =A0dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u >>> 21. ti me lo la.sam. sedyta'u .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u >>> 22. sy: ta mo doi.clalis. >>> 23. cy: ta gerku >>> =A0 =A0 =A0sy: xu ta me lo do gerku >>> 24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku >>> 25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku >>> =A0 =A0 =A0dy: cmene la.flyfis. >>> 26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi >>> =A0 =A0 =A0sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o >>> 27. sy: go'i .i lo cy. dalpe'o na.ue gerku .i ri mlatu .i lo mlatu cu s= e >>> cmene la snime (I don't how to attach PU to UI, so I left out "je" of >>> "jiqje".) >>> 28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu >>> 29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i ri tcebra >>> 30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu >>> 31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo v= i >>> mlatu >>> 32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku >>> =A0 =A0 =A0cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i ri na'obra >>> 33. cmalu sedyta'u ... barda sedyta'u ... na'obra sedyta'u >>> 34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani >>> 35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma >>> =A0 =A0 =A0cy: ri zvati tu >>> 36. sy: mi zvati ma >>> =A0 =A0 =A0cy: do zvati ta vau doi.sam. >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> >> >> >> -- >> /p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/ >> /bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/ >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > /p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/ > /bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.