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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Major flaw in Lojban ! (was:Pivotal sentences
 in Pandunia. How to express them in Lojban ?)
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Indeed, it's not a competition. Therefore there are neither victors nor
losers. And Lojban is *so* imperfect, in *so* many ways. But it's still fun
to learn and use.

stevo

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:15 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course I know that Pandunia lacks other nice features.
> I want Lojban to be the best in every feature, not most features. It's no=
t
> a competition.
> The victory over other logical projects must be total.
>
> The question is similar to recent discussion about {kakne} - x1 is capabl=
e
> of {x2} which accomplishes the requirement of pivotal sentences whereas
> many other gismu do not.
> {mi cpedu lonu do rinsa [ko'a,zo'e,lo prenu, etc.]} is not the answer.
> It's too ambiguous. Where is x3 ? Who are you asking this for ?
> It's like {mi kakne lo nu do rinsa mi} - an impractical solution that
> could be logically possible.
> Compare with {djica} - {mi djica lo nu do rinsa mi} - that *is* within th=
e
> baseline.
>
> The major flaw in Lojban is that it cannot compactly express "I ask you t=
o
> greet me". You have to say
> {mi cpedu [fe] lo nu do rinsa [ku] [fi] do}
> And here is the lack of compactness (two valsi {do} instead of one).
> Even English (not Pandunia !) is better. "I ask you to greet me" -
> absolutely no need to repeat the word "you".
>
>
> SO THE MAJOR FLAW OF LOJBAN IS THE LACK OF CONNECTION BETWEEN SUMTI in
> many gismu.
> I can see only one solution.
> {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa} therefore completely ignoring x2 (the act of
> ignoring at least won't break the baseline).
> But I'm not sure whether it preserves the needed meaning.
>
> On Friday, March 16, 2012 10:31:11 AM UTC+4, Oleksii Melnyk wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 15 March 2012 18:10, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> So the second "sumti" *ti *in *mi peti ti *becomes the first "sumti" of
>>> the next construction "ti tshau ta".
>>> I wonder whether it's possible to do so in Lojban. May {be} or {.i ri}
>>> can do the trick
>>>
>>
>> >Pandunia ... lacks other complex grammatical structures ...
>>
>> while lojban mandates them. So, in that example, it's hard to ?factor?
>> the sumti out of the abstraction. In some specific cases you can get clo=
se
>> enough with:
>>
>> 1. common set of sumti with 2 =ABbridi tails=BB - with reversed order, c=
ommon
>> comes first
>> 2. NOI, with the hardcoded semantic
>>
>> --
>> mi'e lex mu'o
>>
>>  --
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> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>

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Indeed, it&#39;s not a competition. Therefore there are neither victors nor=
 losers. And Lojban is *so* imperfect, in *so* many ways. But it&#39;s stil=
l fun to learn and use.=A0<div><br></div><div>stevo<br><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:15 AM, gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Of course I know that Pandunia lacks other nice features.<div>I want Lojban=
 to be the best in every feature, not most features. It&#39;s not a competi=
tion.=A0</div><div>The victory over other logical projects must be total.</=
div>

<div><br><div>The question is similar to recent discussion about {kakne} - =
x1 is capable of {x2} which accomplishes the requirement of pivotal sentenc=
es whereas many other gismu do not.</div><div>{mi cpedu lonu do rinsa [ko&#=
39;a,zo&#39;e,lo prenu, etc.]} is not the answer. It&#39;s too ambiguous. W=
here is x3 ? Who are you asking this for ?</div>

<div>It&#39;s like {mi kakne lo nu do rinsa mi} - an impractical solution t=
hat could be=A0logically possible.</div><div>Compare with {djica} - {mi dji=
ca=A0lo nu do rinsa mi} - that *is* within the baseline.</div><div><br></di=
v>

<div>The major flaw in Lojban is that it cannot compactly express &quot;I a=
sk you to greet me&quot;. You have to say</div><div>{mi cpedu [fe] lo nu do=
 rinsa [ku] [fi] do}</div><div>And here is the lack of compactness (two val=
si {do} instead of one).</div>

<div>Even English (not Pandunia !) is better.=A0&quot;I ask you to greet me=
&quot; - absolutely no need to repeat the word &quot;you&quot;.</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div>SO THE MAJOR FLAW OF LOJBAN IS THE LACK OF CON=
NECTION BETWEEN SUMTI in many gismu.</div>

<div>I can see only one solution.</div><div>{mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa} ther=
efore completely ignoring x2 (the act of ignoring at least won&#39;t break =
the baseline).</div><div>But I&#39;m not sure whether it preserves the need=
ed meaning.<br>

<br>On Friday, March 16, 2012 10:31:11 AM UTC+4, Oleksii Melnyk wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 15 Mar=
ch 2012 18:10, gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.na=
me@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>So the second &quot;sumti&quot; <i>ti </i>in <i>mi peti ti=A0</i>becom=
es the first &quot;sumti&quot; of the next construction &quot;ti tshau ta&q=
uot;.</div><div>I wonder whether it&#39;s possible to do so in Lojban. May =
{be} or {.i ri} can do the trick</div>


</blockquote><div><br>&gt;Pandunia ... lacks other complex grammatical stru=
ctures ...<br><br>while lojban  mandates them. So, in that example, it&#39;=
s hard to ?factor? the sumti out of the abstraction. In some specific cases=
 you can get close enough with:<br>


<br>1. common set of sumti with 2 =ABbridi tails=BB - with reversed order, =
common comes first<br>2. NOI, with the hardcoded semantic<span class=3D"HOE=
nZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br></font></span></div></div><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br>

mi&#39;e lex mu&#39;o<br><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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