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From: gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Major flaw in Lojban ! (was:Pivotal sentences
 in Pandunia. How to express them in Lojban ?)
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On Friday, March 16, 2012 4:32:38 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
>
> Indeed, it's not a competition. Therefore there are neither victors nor=
=20
> losers. And Lojban is *so* imperfect, in *so* many ways.


Oh please don't tell me that ! Tell me that I'm right in my suggeston for=
=20
{mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi}.
I hope there are no traditions in lojban for expressing this or that. And=
=20
therefore may be we can invent something that will sound nice and laconic
but still within the baseline.

Or tell me that may be we should try creating another bunch of gismu, may=
=20
be a hundred or so (zo'o) that will work better.
=20

> But it's still fun to learn and use. =20


> stevo
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:15 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>> Of course I know that Pandunia lacks other nice features.
>> I want Lojban to be the best in every feature, not most features. It's=
=20
>> not a competition.=20
>> The victory over other logical projects must be total.
>>
>> The question is similar to recent discussion about {kakne} - x1 is=20
>> capable of {x2} which accomplishes the requirement of pivotal sentences=
=20
>> whereas many other gismu do not.
>> {mi cpedu lonu do rinsa [ko'a,zo'e,lo prenu, etc.]} is not the answer.=
=20
>> It's too ambiguous. Where is x3 ? Who are you asking this for ?
>> It's like {mi kakne lo nu do rinsa mi} - an impractical solution that=20
>> could be logically possible.
>> Compare with {djica} - {mi djica lo nu do rinsa mi} - that *is* within=
=20
>> the baseline.
>>
>> The major flaw in Lojban is that it cannot compactly express "I ask you=
=20
>> to greet me". You have to say
>> {mi cpedu [fe] lo nu do rinsa [ku] [fi] do}
>> And here is the lack of compactness (two valsi {do} instead of one).
>> Even English (not Pandunia !) is better. "I ask you to greet me" -=20
>> absolutely no need to repeat the word "you".
>>
>>
>> SO THE MAJOR FLAW OF LOJBAN IS THE LACK OF CONNECTION BETWEEN SUMTI in=
=20
>> many gismu.
>> I can see only one solution.
>> {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa} therefore completely ignoring x2 (the act of=
=20
>> ignoring at least won't break the baseline).
>> But I'm not sure whether it preserves the needed meaning.
>>
>> On Friday, March 16, 2012 10:31:11 AM UTC+4, Oleksii Melnyk wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15 March 2012 18:10, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So the second "sumti" *ti *in *mi peti ti *becomes the first "sumti"=
=20
>>>> of the next construction "ti tshau ta".
>>>> I wonder whether it's possible to do so in Lojban. May {be} or {.i ri}=
=20
>>>> can do the trick
>>>>
>>>
>>> >Pandunia ... lacks other complex grammatical structures ...
>>>
>>> while lojban mandates them. So, in that example, it's hard to ?factor?=
=20
>>> the sumti out of the abstraction. In some specific cases you can get cl=
ose=20
>>> enough with:
>>>
>>> 1. common set of sumti with 2 =ABbridi tails=BB - with reversed order,=
=20
>>> common comes first
>>> 2. NOI, with the hardcoded semantic
>>>
>>> --=20
>>> mi'e lex mu'o
>>>
>>>  --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s=20
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/uwkF_b01VvIJ.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at=20
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>

--=20
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo=
jban-beginners/-/7ottFYPBuU0J.
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On Friday, March 16, 2012 4:32:38 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:<blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Indeed, it's not a competition. Therefore there=
 are neither victors nor losers. And Lojban is *so* imperfect, in *so* many=
 ways.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Oh please don't tell me that ! Tell =
me that I'm right in my suggeston for {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi}.<br></d=
iv><div>I hope there are no traditions in lojban for expressing this or tha=
t. And therefore may be we can invent something that will sound nice and la=
conic</div><div>but still within the baseline.</div><div><br></div><div>Or =
tell me that may be we should try creating another bunch of gismu, may be a=
 hundred or so (zo'o) that will work better.</div><div>&nbsp;<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-=
left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"> But it's still fun to learn and u=
se.&nbsp;&nbsp;</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><d=
iv><br></div><div>stevo<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:15 AM, gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Of course I know that Pandunia lacks other nice features.<div>I want Lojban=
 to be the best in every feature, not most features. It's not a competition=
.&nbsp;</div><div>The victory over other logical projects must be total.</d=
iv>

<div><br><div>The question is similar to recent discussion about {kakne} - =
x1 is capable of {x2} which accomplishes the requirement of pivotal sentenc=
es whereas many other gismu do not.</div><div>{mi cpedu lonu do rinsa [ko'a=
,zo'e,lo prenu, etc.]} is not the answer. It's too ambiguous. Where is x3 ?=
 Who are you asking this for ?</div>

<div>It's like {mi kakne lo nu do rinsa mi} - an impractical solution that =
could be&nbsp;logically possible.</div><div>Compare with {djica} - {mi djic=
a&nbsp;lo nu do rinsa mi} - that *is* within the baseline.</div><div><br></=
div>

<div>The major flaw in Lojban is that it cannot compactly express "I ask yo=
u to greet me". You have to say</div><div>{mi cpedu [fe] lo nu do rinsa [ku=
] [fi] do}</div><div>And here is the lack of compactness (two valsi {do} in=
stead of one).</div>

<div>Even English (not Pandunia !) is better.&nbsp;"I ask you to greet me" =
- absolutely no need to repeat the word "you".</div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div>SO THE MAJOR FLAW OF LOJBAN IS THE LACK OF CONNECTION BETWEEN S=
UMTI in many gismu.</div>

<div>I can see only one solution.</div><div>{mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa} ther=
efore completely ignoring x2 (the act of ignoring at least won't break the =
baseline).</div><div>But I'm not sure whether it preserves the needed meani=
ng.<br>

<br>On Friday, March 16, 2012 10:31:11 AM UTC+4, Oleksii Melnyk wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 15 Mar=
ch 2012 18:10, gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.na=
me@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>So the second "sumti" <i>ti </i>in <i>mi peti ti&nbsp;</i>becomes the =
first "sumti" of the next construction "ti tshau ta".</div><div>I wonder wh=
ether it's possible to do so in Lojban. May {be} or {.i ri} can do the tric=
k</div>


</blockquote><div><br>&gt;Pandunia ... lacks other complex grammatical stru=
ctures ...<br><br>while lojban  mandates them. So, in that example, it's ha=
rd to ?factor? the sumti out of the abstraction. In some specific cases you=
 can get close enough with:<br>


<br>1. common set of sumti with 2 =ABbridi tails=BB - with reversed order, =
common comes first<br>2. NOI, with the hardcoded semantic<span><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br><br></font></span></div></div><span><font color=3D"#888888=
">-- <br>

mi'e lex mu'o<br><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

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