Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:51510)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCJS3ppUjEND7jfsEGgQhMyJe@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1S8bKY-0000L6-LS; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:52:47 -0700
Received: by ggmi2 with SMTP id i2sf6231134ggm.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject
         :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=JSfisYsgjoFdF8qBIU/v7MBJ0e08ey4NGphhwRT+gmg=;
        b=nLD6kZq/jGPWQrmT4iTw7ZR5JEyYeMREKyTuV/ypzYQsQjrd4eBmccrp+2ESX2o+zE
         zSYasui67k4ZSL1W7IcqHufDvumWKpX8hnX28o9PDdaVuU7j5z8Nvp1aZzjHFbmFwemC
         VvggO9xAdWutp0nE4fnRMzVuyxauqgaNqQjMQ=
Received: by 10.236.79.202 with SMTP id i50mr804303yhe.5.1331920336203;
        Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.236.185.132 with SMTP id u4ls8539063yhm.1.gmail; Fri, 16 Mar
 2012 10:52:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.168.36 with SMTP id j24mr820814yhl.3.1331920335596;
        Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:52:15 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lindar <lindarthebard@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <21590616.1383.1331920334900.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynil17>
In-Reply-To: <14627135.208.1331917668355.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbas10>
References: <26361784.259.1331827845548.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjw14>
 <CAOJh99=pb4wOUQimxiXV6y64OiXjJa21OepEZXQvYAVVfdG07A@mail.gmail.com>
 <2343119.814.1331896532433.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynkz21>
 <CAHiXx=P8TijqQSs7b_MhkmeseiGfef5n8_vx5ROYnNNuM_VB4Q@mail.gmail.com> <32227855.55.1331909777553.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yncc18>
 <CALm==BWJsL527Fhg80vOAkiaF8St1E_JGsmZ7XCvDOViPGhLMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <14627135.208.1331917668355.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbas10>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Major flaw in Lojban ! (was:Pivotal sentences
 in Pandunia. How to express them in Lojban ?)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of
 lindarthebard@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=lindarthebard@gmail.com; dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_1382_17136864.1331920334899"
X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.4
X-Spam_score_int: -3
X-Spam_bar: /
Content-Length: 4703

------=_Part_1382_17136864.1331920334899
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1


>
> OK. At least I can express "I want to sleep" as "mi djica lo nu ri sipna" 
> and I have to memorise just {lonuri}, a lengthy but practical string.


There's an implicit {ce'u} there. You don't need {ri} because it's already 
assumed.
{mi djica lo nu sipna} is {mi djica lo nu ce'u sipna} is {mi djica lo nu mi 
sipna} is {mi djica lo nu mi sipna vau kei ku vau}.
 

> What I can tell you is that I would translate "I ask you to greet me"
>> (If I wanted to mention the pronouns) as {mi cpedu lo nu do rinsa mi},
>> which leaves the person being asked implicit, but taken in the present
>> tense, I can't easily think of a {te cpedu} that isn't {do}.
>>
> ...or {mi cpedu lo nu rinsa kei do}.
{ko rinsa se va'u mi}
{ko rinsa fi'o se pluka mi}

The problem is that you're being Francocentric about your phrasing. Also, 
whatever language that is in the first post just looks like coded English. 
That's why you can get an English sentence to fit so nicely. If all you 
want is to be able to easily transliterate natlang phrases, just speak 
Esperanto. I'll stick with a few extra words instead of having to rely on 
tone and timing.

Also, {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi} is "I ask of You Who Greets Me" kinda 
like it's a title. {poi} is probably not what you want and that's probably 
not what you want to say, even if you used {noi}, because it's not even 
implicit what you're asking.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/iTm1pB_0nSoJ.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


------=_Part_1382_17136864.1331920334899
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bor=
der-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">OK. At least I can express&nbs=
p;"I want to sleep"&nbsp;as "mi djica lo nu ri sipna" and I have to memoris=
e just {lonuri}, a lengthy but practical string.</blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>There's an implicit {ce'u} there. You don't need {ri} because it's al=
ready assumed.</div><div>{mi djica lo nu sipna} is {mi djica lo nu ce'u sip=
na} is {mi djica lo nu mi sipna} is {mi djica lo nu mi sipna vau kei ku vau=
}.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p>What I can tell you is that I wo=
uld translate "I ask you to greet me"<br>(If I wanted to mention the pronou=
ns) as {mi cpedu lo nu do rinsa mi},<br>which leaves the person being asked=
 implicit, but taken in the present<br>tense, I can't easily think of a {te=
 cpedu} that isn't {do}.</p></blockquote></div></blockquote><div>...or {mi =
cpedu lo nu rinsa kei do}.</div><div>{ko rinsa se va'u mi}</div><div>{ko ri=
nsa fi'o se pluka mi}</div><div><br></div><div>The problem is that you're b=
eing Francocentric about your phrasing.&nbsp;Also, whatever language that i=
s in the first post just looks like coded English. That's why you can get a=
n English sentence to fit so nicely. If all you want is to be able to easil=
y transliterate natlang phrases, just speak Esperanto. I'll stick with a fe=
w extra words instead of having to rely on tone and timing.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Also, {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi} is "I ask of You Who Greets M=
e" kinda like it's a title. {poi} is probably not what you want and that's =
probably not what you want to say, even if you used {noi}, because it's not=
 even implicit what you're asking.</div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/iTm1pB_0nSoJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l=
ojban-beginners/-/iTm1pB_0nSoJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



------=_Part_1382_17136864.1331920334899--