Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:45456) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S9zrZ-00006P-QH; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:16:40 -0700 Received: by yhkk25 with SMTP id k25sf83261yhk.16 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:16:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-pair-authenticated:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=M+9+izBTpzpnyQFBLmv1+tJvrKIEHYQr8DOgXbepnrs=; b=NvhMd9XSHKgIt6xuk7s+7TwWTAJpo6cGtTk3xo569XXhrgH4Wi8hiQlUZSdBMLa3UH 8MhIqNiM2DENTKnH8Qx5QbTGwUjarOvK2SyAKcqaJsGh7GX5fiDjbEyNUPH+DV92Nl8a qUWLfyY5FJG9V5pxmFP8z50Z78Hix07dqxLp8= Received: by 10.50.51.170 with SMTP id l10mr35711igo.3.1332252969837; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.42.100 with SMTP id r36ls752862ibe.2.gmail; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.158.4 with SMTP id f4mr20484icx.4.1332252968845; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.158.4 with SMTP id f4mr20482icx.4.1332252968798; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay02.pair.com (relay02.pair.com. [209.68.5.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id hq2si3042443igc.3.2012.03.20.07.16.08; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.68.5.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) client-ip=209.68.5.16; Received: (qmail 24446 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2012 14:16:06 -0000 Received: from 87.160.142.25 (HELO ?192.168.1.33?) (87.160.142.25) by relay02.pair.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 2012 14:16:06 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 87.160.142.25 Message-ID: <4F689125.1000601@plasmatix.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:16:05 +0100 From: selpa'i User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? References: <24143939.1398.1332138901295.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynnk21> <19229634.6385.1332243517469.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynne2> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: m3o@plasmatix.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.68.5.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) smtp.mail=m3o@plasmatix.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050306010908090002080007" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 24851 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050306010908090002080007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Abstractions within abstractions aren't at all uncommon. You can see something like {mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste} everyday. It's not extremely contrived, anyway. The way to avoid all the terminators is to rearrange the order of sumti. You can elide all of them by putting the selbri first. lo nu mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] mukti lo nu mi cafne tadni You can avoid all the teminators by saying: mukti lo nu mi cafne tadni kei fa lo nu mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste This can be done pretty much always. Sometimes, however, using ku will save you syllables. mu'o mi'e la selpa'i Am 20.03.2012 15:00, schrieb Jonathan Jones: > I didn't actually do the experimenting to determine such a thing > myself, so I really can't say exactly. > > However, your example is extremely contrived. I highly doubt that > anyone would talk about an event of an event of an event of an event > in any real-life situation, nor can I conceive of what such a thing > is. I'm not even sure of what an event of an event is, let alone the > fourth iteration. (lodu'u broda losi'o brode lonu brodi , on the other > hand, at least makes some sort of coherent sense to me, however.) > > Also, vlasisku.lojban.org appears to be > down. Someone not about to go to sleep want to go on IRC and let Robin > et al know? (It happens that while I know there are other NU, si'o > du'u and nu are the only ones I remember off the top of my head.) > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, MorphemeAddict > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:10 AM, ianek > wrote: > > > > On 20 Mar, 13:23, Jonathan Jones > wrote: > > Well, in that case, I recommend cu, not ku. cu is actually > easily elidable, > > unlike ku. I believe we determined not long ago that in the > worst case, it > > would take a maximum of three terminators in the absence of > cu to correctly > > terminate a grammatical structure, and rarely more than one. > > What a about {lo nu broda lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo > ku ku ku > ku brodu}? Jbofi'e says that it needs at least these four {ku} > if we > want to avoid {cu}. > I like avoiding {cu}, but only when it doesn't require a string of > more than two terminators. > > > Maybe the original meant three /distinct/ terminators. You've used > only one, albeit four times. > > stevo > > > mu 'o mi'e ianek > > > cu is kind of like an optional half-.i, in that whereas .i > implicitly adds > > whatever terminators are required to end the previous > sentence and begin a > > new one, cu does the same, but only up the point of the > selbri (, and > > please keep in mind that that is where my comparison ends- I > doubt there > > are any other similarities between cu and .i). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:38 AM, gleki > > wrote: > > > Well. We are preparing a textbook that will teach how to > speak lojban. > > > But this textbook must use as few words as possible. > > > I wanna get rid of all words that can be replaced by other > words. > > > > > It's a textbook for newbies. So don't worry. It will be an > introduction to > > > Lojban. > > > > > On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:49:14 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: > > > > >> Even if it is possible to eliminate {ku} in speech, why > would you want to? > > > > >> stevo > > > > >> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:35 AM, gleki > >wrote: > > > > >>> Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? > Can we > > >>> rearrange words in extreme cases and use other cmavo > like {kei} and {cu} ? > > > > >>> -- > > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to > the Google > > >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > >>> To view this discussion on the web > visithttps://groups.google.com/d/** > > > >>> > msg/lojban-beginners/-/**P3eUQjPdbJsJ > > >>> . > > >>> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.**com > > > >>> . > > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > ibe@googlegroups.com > > > >>> . > > >>> For more options, visit this group > athttp://groups.google.com/** > > >>> > group/lojban-beginners?hl=en > > >>> . > > > > >> -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to > the Google Groups > > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/GaqDxupbMXQJ. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > . > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > -- > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. -- .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --------------050306010908090002080007 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Abstractions within abstractions aren't at all uncommon.
You can see something like {mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste} everyday. It's not extremely contrived, anyway.
The way to avoid all the terminators is to rearrange the order of sumti. You can elide all of them by putting the selbri first.
lo nu mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] mukti lo nu mi cafne tadni
You can avoid all the teminators by saying:
mukti lo nu mi cafne tadni kei fa lo nu mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste

This can be done pretty much always. Sometimes, however, using ku will save you syllables.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

Am 20.03.2012 15:00, schrieb Jonathan Jones:
I didn't actually do the experimenting to determine such a thing myself, so I really can't say exactly.

However, your example is extremely contrived. I highly doubt that anyone would talk about an event of an event of an event of an event in any real-life situation, nor can I conceive of what such a thing is. I'm not even sure of what an event of an event is, let alone the fourth iteration. (lodu'u broda losi'o brode lonu brodi , on the other hand, at least makes some sort of coherent sense to me, however.)

Also, vlasisku.lojban.org appears to be down. Someone not about to go to sleep want to go on IRC and let Robin et al know? (It happens that while I know there are other NU, si'o du'u and nu are the only ones I remember off the top of my head.)

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:10 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:


On 20 Mar, 13:23, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, in that case, I recommend cu, not ku. cu is actually easily elidable,
> unlike ku. I believe we determined not long ago that in the worst case, it
> would take a maximum of three terminators in the absence of cu to correctly
> terminate a grammatical structure, and rarely more than one.

What a about {lo nu broda lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo ku ku ku
ku brodu}? Jbofi'e says that it needs at least these four {ku} if we
want to avoid {cu}.
I like avoiding {cu}, but only when it doesn't require a string of
more than two terminators.

Maybe the original meant three distinct terminators. You've used only one, albeit four times. 

stevo 

mu 'o mi'e ianek

> cu is kind of like an optional half-.i, in that whereas .i implicitly adds
> whatever terminators are required to end the previous sentence and begin a
> new one, cu does the same, but only up the point of the selbri (, and
> please keep in mind that that is where my comparison ends- I doubt there
> are any other similarities between cu and .i).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:38 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well. We are preparing a textbook that will teach how to speak lojban.
> > But this textbook must use as few words as possible.
> > I wanna get rid of all words that can be replaced by other words.
>
> > It's a textbook for newbies. So don't worry. It will be an introduction to
> > Lojban.
>
> > On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:49:14 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
>
> >> Even if it is possible to eliminate {ku} in speech, why would you want to?
>
> >> stevo
>
> >> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:35 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? Can we
> >>> rearrange words in extreme cases and use other cmavo like {kei} and {cu} ?
>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/**
> >>> msg/lojban-beginners/-/**P3eUQjPdbJsJ<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/P3eUQjPdbJsJ>
> >>> .
> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.**com<lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
> >>> .
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscr ibe@googlegroups.com>
> >>> .
> >>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/**
> >>> group/lojban-beginners?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en>
> >>> .
>
> >>  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/GaqDxupbMXQJ.
>
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


-- 
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna 
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
--------------050306010908090002080007--