Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:61084)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCKOXn8wTEN__lfwEGgQ0qfJT@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SHxHh-0006qv-Q4; Wed, 11 Apr 2012 06:08:36 -0700
Received: by vcbfo11 with SMTP id fo11sf900687vcb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 11 Apr 2012 06:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject
         :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=JRdBz/NoNy+/cZs559tUAv6R0mHvvqCZEYTOlDYPANg=;
        b=mfnxv/mZ+pFLBwg/Ql9LPR7DZqCQ0pMiI6ezJJ1oUCSpT8cp10hYY0yxk+al3RJnuH
         KTAhKdzyananeOR/saGSm+nD6Jagtf89O9NeybeGd582+oWNwy19ABCX28CYY3R4YDnt
         5Ug/lH+Roytyu2hsJ74MtAp4FEO43kjPW2MnM=
Received: by 10.68.218.103 with SMTP id pf7mr3400229pbc.11.1334149087998;
        Wed, 11 Apr 2012 05:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.226.135 with SMTP id rs7ls3631674pbc.5.gmail; Wed, 11 Apr
 2012 05:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.136.106 with SMTP id pz10mr2723126pbb.16.1334149087499;
        Wed, 11 Apr 2012 05:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 05:58:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <21891407.72.1334149086441.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbla14>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2f-X3Ng66w15N2DTiRQxvEW=jkPQ-A2QXraQ+xdML0P6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <15948025.380.1334074333546.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbcsi10>
 <CALm==BW7Qkdmt20Hu78BH3rCGHS-e9TjH9O9axbvXcF+DMCWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO7tK2f-X3Ng66w15N2DTiRQxvEW=jkPQ-A2QXraQ+xdML0P6w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] completeness of actions is not defined in most gismu
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of
 gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_71_26550171.1334149086439"
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /
Content-Length: 4847

------=_Part_71_26550171.1334149086439
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

OK. May be all such gismu are ambiguous about the stage of the process.
And we need to use event contours more frequently.

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:08:25 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 2:01 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> >
> > {mi mo'u jgari} means that you're talking about the end of the event
> > of you grasping something. Again, it is not specified whether this
> > event is in the present, etc.
>
> I think the question was what exactly constitutes the end of an event
> of jgari. What happens right after "mi mo'u jgari lo plise lo xance"?
> Is the apple now firmly in my hand, or have I just dropped it? Does
> jgari describe a state or a change of state?
>
> The problem is that the English words used to describe it are
> ambiguous. "Hold" describes a state, while "seize" describes a change
> of state ("take hold"). When I finish holding an apple, I no longer
> have it. When I finish seizing it, I am holding it. "mo'u jgari" could
> describe the end of the state, the end of holding, so that after that
> I'm no longer holding, or it could describe the completion of the
> change of state, so that after that I have completed the seizing, the
> taking hold of, and so I'm holding it.
>
> There are many words like this one, where the English gloss doesn't
> make clear whether they describe a state or a change of state. In such
> cases, I think it's better to take them as describing a state, because
> the change of state is easier to derive from the state than the other
> way around.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/A7D_fDQnkbgJ.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


------=_Part_71_26550171.1334149086439
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>OK. May be all such gismu are ambiguous about the stage of the process=
.</div><div>And we need&nbsp;to use event contours more frequently.</div><d=
iv><br></div>On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:08:25 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:<b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;borde=
r-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 2:01 PM,=
 .arpis. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rpglover64%2Bjbobau@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; {mi mo'u jg=
ari} means that you're talking about the end of the event<br>&gt; of you gr=
asping something. Again, it is not specified whether this<br>&gt; event is =
in the present, etc.<p>I think the question was what exactly constitutes th=
e end of an event<br>of jgari. What happens right after "mi mo'u jgari lo p=
lise lo xance"?<br>Is the apple now firmly in my hand, or have I just dropp=
ed it? Does<br>jgari describe a state or a change of state?</p><p>The probl=
em is that the English words used to describe it are<br>ambiguous. "Hold" d=
escribes a state, while "seize" describes a change<br>of state ("take hold"=
). When I finish holding an apple, I no longer<br>have it. When I finish se=
izing it, I am holding it. "mo'u jgari" could<br>describe the end of the st=
ate, the end of holding, so that after that<br>I'm no longer holding, or it=
 could describe the completion of the<br>change of state, so that after tha=
t I have completed the seizing, the<br>taking hold of, and so I'm holding i=
t.</p><p>There are many words like this one, where the English gloss doesn'=
t<br>make clear whether they describe a state or a change of state. In such=
<br>cases, I think it's better to take them as describing a state, because<=
br>the change of state is easier to derive from the state than the other<br=
>way around.</p><p>mu'o mi'e xorxes<br></p><p></p><p></p><p></p></blockquot=
e>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/A7D_fDQnkbgJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l=
ojban-beginners/-/A7D_fDQnkbgJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



------=_Part_71_26550171.1334149086439--