... Examples of *PETTY* 1. a *petty* argument about grammar It is definition 2 (or perhaps 1) that you are looking at here, and is directly conveyed by their example. (Have I mentioned that I am an editor over at an English language website for about 8years? ;-) ) Incidentally, I didn't stress that I DO appreciate the work you have done, and don't mean to denigrate it in any way. Your translation of the comic is of great importance. --gejyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --000e0ce0d3ba038f4704bf779a52 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at = 3:15 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:37 A= M, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:0= 4 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Michae= l Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 a= t 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michae= l Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:

On Fri, May = 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:

=A0<= /div>

=A02. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than &quo= t;mi se xance"?

Because it a translation from the Ceqli.<= br>
"go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa t= aq. go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!"
"I have hand. I have two of = hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have two of hand. Hand, two!"=

This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either.
=A0

=A0 But "I have a hand"= ; is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xa= nce lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.

Fine, but what's th= e general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, which is neith= er hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every instance of= "<x1> srana lo <bridi>" be changed to "<x1&g= t; se <bridi>"?

=A0 There is = no single lojban word which means the English "have" in all its s= enses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) =A0Indeed, I'm surprised that= Ceqli does have such a thing. =A0In most cases, such as "I have a hou= se/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is cor= rect. =A0In cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"= ), "jgari" would be correct" To indicate a general relations= hip between two things, the actual nature of the relationship should be ind= icated ("I have a brother", "I have a head" -> "= ;mi se bruna" "mi se stedu")

I didn't say "a= ll" senses. I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer m= y question. Based on your response, I'll assume your answer would be &q= uot;yes".

=A0 =A0Well, the point I= was trying to make is that lojban would consider "I have a hand"= and "I have a head" to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word glossed = in English as "have" because one is "being-with-hand" a= nd one is "being-with-head". =A0So I am not suggesting that "= ;every instance of '<x1> srana lo <bridi>' be changed t= o '<x1> se <bridi>'" =A0Only where '<x1>= se <bridi>' is in fact what you are trying to convey.=A0

= =A0 Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your or= iginal thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were released.= =A0Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare your long= draft to it? =A0No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my current r= esponse came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), =A0but so ma= ny other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it seemed like you= really weren't interested in taking their constructive criticism (your= responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I don'= ;t care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? =A0Anyway= , it was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done.

No, my responses ran along the line= s of "what you're complaining about is petite". What you'= re talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty damned important = points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the feedback into cons= ideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, for example- but= it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually /worse/ than what= I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never refused to make = a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed that some things we= re wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been wrong and decided = to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am wrong, whether it be t= hrough other people showing me, as you did with the pet ralte use and the p= anzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of knowledge, or what-ha= ve-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may be stubborn, but I&#= 39;m not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in the face of ov= erwhelming evidence is stupid.

=A0 For example on t= he issue of "la" vs. "zo" in regards to the x1 "cm= ene" you were told you were flat-out wrong about it by many people and= yet you dug in your heels for the longest time about it.

I did say I was stubborn, didn'= t I?
=A0

=A0 (on the issue of petty complaints, btw, the word is &qu= ot;petty", not "petite" =A0;-) )

"Petty" is the wrong spelling but the correct p= ronunciation, "petite" is the correct spelling but the wrong pron= unciation. "Petite" is a French word meaning "small". =A0

=A0 Yes, "petite"= is the French for small, however, the English word "petty", whic= h is derived from the French, is the correct spelling for what you are tryi= ng to convey. =A0To quote from Merriam Webster's 11th collegiate:

1 :=A0having secondary ra= nk or importance:=A0minor,=A0subordinate

:=A0having little or no importance = or significance

:=A0marked by or reflective o= f narrow interests and sympathies=A0:small-minded<= /a>

...

Examples of=A0PETTY

a=A0petty=A0argument about grammar

=A0 =A0 It is definition 2 (or perhaps 1) that you are look= ing at here, and is directly conveyed by their example.

=A0 =A0 (= Have I mentioned that I am an editor over at an English language website fo= r about 8years? =A0;-) )

=A0 =A0 Incidentally, I didn't stress that I DO app= reciate the work you have done, and don't mean to denigrate it in any w= ay. =A0Your translation of the comic is of great importance.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

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