Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:39159) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SSbl9-0003pN-8k; Thu, 10 May 2012 15:22:56 -0700 Received: by yenl13 with SMTP id l13sf1759321yen.16 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8mkGWX+0B7aO85l6ZH7JPBLQ0hmHFKP1I/Tu5gwMeYI=; b=WTIiAMmKaAFQTLL/cOI3UVz2rEd/Sk3j4BT/DX8ce+I5cvGXGFOEw6RKYocC/Oarx1 97VrYDPOd42LqkfGLkTiO36OBHczHIItRYsEzo6xXJ8gNSnxV361NJ8HTTzT4p2MeBX6 FRxgwSmMsHrDQt50E2HuIu/WWqe7t2zehgz18= Received: by 10.52.24.52 with SMTP id r20mr300090vdf.3.1336688568486; Thu, 10 May 2012 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.70.103 with SMTP id l7ls2194654vdu.1.gmail; Thu, 10 May 2012 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.36.136 with SMTP id q8mr278062vdj.17.1336688567405; Thu, 10 May 2012 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 15:22:46 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=81lvaro_Vallejo?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <8679592.192.1336688566929.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbkv21> In-Reply-To: <4FAB92A7.8030500@plasmatix.com> References: <22560097.502.1336568142532.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yndm3> <13954430.1727.1336608605204.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynbv35> <4FAB92A7.8030500@plasmatix.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: 'tesete' and cmavo cluster rules MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: avallejor@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of avallejor@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=avallejor@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_191_33185831.1336688566926" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 9474 ------=_Part_191_33185831.1336688566926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your opinion, but it is either very surprising to me or wrong. Yes, it is .u bu, sure. My fault. Probably I lack reading comprehension, but here are my arguments: 1. (CLL, Chapter 3): "Lojban is designed so that any properly spoken Lojban= =20 utterance can be uniquely transcribed in writing, and any properly written= =20 Lojban can be spoken so as to be uniquely reproduced by another person. As= =20 a consequence, the standard Lojban orthography must assign to each distinct= =20 sound, or phoneme, a unique letter or symbol."=20 My reading of this is that there is only one way to pronounce u, which is= =20 (among others) the plain Spanish "u".=20 2. It may be that speakers of other languages can pronounce it as "w" (and= =20 I can forgive them), but I can/do clearly pronounce it as plain "u": .ui = =3D=20 "u" + "i" Anyway, this is just my humble opinion. mu'o mi'e la .albaros On Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:04:23 AM UTC-5, Miles Forster wrote: > > .y bu is not "u". .u bu is. And the u in ui is not pronounced [u] but [w= ]=20 > which *is* a consonant. Some here seem to lack reading comprehension. It'= s=20 > annoying to argue with people who won't listen to what the other person i= s=20 > saying. > Whether or not something is a vowel depends on the way it's pronounced,= =20 > not the way it's written. > > mu'o > > Am 10.05.2012 02:12, schrieb Michael Turniansky:=20 > > It is, and it always does require a pause in front of it. Miles is=20 > wrong.=20 > --gejyspa > > > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM, =C1lvaro Vallejo <> wrote: > >> .uesai=20 >> >> >> - "The initial period can never be omitted before vowels (if they are * >> phonetically* vowels. {ui} =3D [wi], so no dot is necessary). " >> - "ui does not begin in a vowel. Therefore, no denpa bu is needed." >> >> Well... I am really shocked! How is it that "u" is not a vowel? It IS a= =20 >> vowel or I should start learning again Lojban from zero: it's name is=20 >> indeed ybu, isn't it? >> (Chapter 1 of Lojban for beginners, Chapter 2 of CLL)...=20 >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit=20 >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/AINBgk5ryt8J.=20 >> =20 >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at=20 >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> =20 > =20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at=20 > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > --=20 > .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna=20 > .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla > >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban-beginners/-/0I5SzRYT_soJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_191_33185831.1336688566926 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your opinion, but it is either very surprising to me or wrong.
Yes, it is .u bu, sure. My fault.

Probably I lack reading comp= rehension, but here are my arguments:
1. (CLL, Chapter 3): "Lojban is de= signed so that any properly spoken Lojban utterance can be uniquely transcr= ibed in writing, and any properly written Lojban can be spoken so as to be = uniquely reproduced by another person. As a consequence, the standard Lojba= n orthography must assign to each distinct sound, or phoneme, a unique lett= er or symbol."

My reading of this is that there is only one way to = pronounce u, which is (among others) the plain Spanish "u".

2. It m= ay be that speakers of other languages can pronounce it as "w" (and I can f= orgive them), but I can/do clearly pronounce it as plain "u": .ui =3D "u" += "i"

Anyway, this is just my humble opinion.

mu'o mi'e la .al= baros


On Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:04:23 AM UTC-5, Miles Forster = wrote:
=20 =20 =20
.y bu is not "u". .u bu is. And the u in ui is not pronounced [u] but [w] which *is* a consonant. Some here seem to lack reading comprehension. It's annoying to argue with people who won't listen to what the other person is saying.
Whether or not something is a vowel depends on the way it's pronounced, not the way it's written.

mu'o

Am 10.05.2012 02:12, schrieb Michael Turniansky:
  It is, and it always does require a pause in front of it.  Miles is wrong.
        --gejyspa


On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM, =C1lvaro Vallejo <> wrote:
.uesai


- "The initial period can never be omitted before vowels (if they are phonetically vowels. {ui} =3D [wi], so no dot is necessary). "
- "ui does not begin in a vowel. Therefore, no denpa bu is needed."

Well... I am really shocked! How is it that "u" is not a vowel? It IS a vowel or I should start learning again Lojban from zero: it's name is indeed ybu, isn't it?
(Chapter 1 of Lojban for beginners, Chapter 2 of CLL)...

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--=20
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna=20
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla

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=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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