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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: What can you do with Lojban that you can't do
 with English?
From: ianek <janek37@gmail.com>
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On 17 Maj, 08:48, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
> > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:27 PM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On 17 Maj, 05:55, Pierre Abbat <p...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday 16 May 2012 20:19:41 Lindar wrote:
>
> >> > > We have red chickens and cows.
> >> > > Are the cows red?
>
> >> > Also, "we" =3D "I and who else?"
>
> >> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo bakni =97 doesn't say what color the=
 cows
> >> are.
> >> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci je bakni =97 false, as no chicken is a cow=
.
>
> >> Aionys says that it doesn't make that assertion. According to him, "we
> >> are a husband and a wife" is {mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe}. So even
> >> such simple things like logical connectives are controversial in
> >> Lojban... uinai
>
> > It's aionys, not Aionys, and I don't say that.

Sorry, I've only used the capital A because it was the beginning of
the sentence.

> > {lo} is not explicit about
> > whether we are speaking of individuals or masses/sets, so it is possibl=
e to
> > have either interpretation. There is nothing controversial about this.
>
> > To quote the tiki page on xorlo:
>
> > lo's inner quantifier indicates the number of things we're talking abou=
t,
> > but in a slightly different fashion. "mu lo bakni cu bevri lo pipno" me=
ans
> > "Five cows each carried a piano individually". "lo mu bakni cu bevri lo
> > pipno" is ambiguous as to whether they did it individually or as a grou=
p.
> > To be clear about group-ness, use loi and friends.
>
> Also, I feel I should point out that in {mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe}, it
> is obvious that "lo nakspe je fetspe" is implicitly referring to a group
> because of "mi'a", and for no other reason.

{lo nakspe je fetspe} refers to "one or more things that are nakspe je
fetspe". If being nakspe je fetspe doesn't imply being simultanously
both a husband and a wife, then {lo jipci je bakni} doesn't imply that
some chicken is a cow. I don't see how it's not analogical. The
sentence about cows and chickens also refers to a group.

Also, I still don't see any difference in meaning between {broda} and
{me lo broda}.

mu'o mi'e ianek

> >> =A0> mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo xunre bakni =97 the cows are red.
> >> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci ja bakni =97 they're all red, but whether
> >> they're all
> >> > chickens or all cows or a mix isn't stated.
>
> >> What about {mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci joi bakni}?
>
> >> mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> >> > Pierre
> >> > --
> >> > loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups
> >> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com=
.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
> > --
> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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