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Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 10:11:29 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] fatci
From: Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com>
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I agree. Suppose you want to say there is no such thing as a fact. You
would use the word {fatci} for what it is you deny exists.

-Eppcott

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:52 AM, tengo <yurock.tengo@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some people dislike the word {fatci}. Why? Let's look into its
> definition:
>
> x1 (du'u) is a fact/reality/truth/actuality, in the absolute.
>
> What's wrong with it? We can't be sure that we know the absolute
> truth! But does it make such a word useless? I state, no. There are
> good uses for it. First, I'll try to make up some arguments against
> {fatci} and analyze them.
>
> Argument: usage of {fatci} can be misleading.
>
> Well, it can be misleading, if we look at it from a "usual" point of
> view. For example:
>
> .i lo du'u lo gerku ca catlu lo mlatu cu fatci
> The fact that a dog looks at a cat is the absolute truth.
>
> Too much self-confidence. :) However, if we look at it from a logical
> point of view, there is nothing wrong with it. What is {lo gerku ca
> catlu lo mlatu} alone? It's a claim that a dog looks at a cat. Does it
> have to be the absolute truth? No, because in my opinion, any claim
> about the reality is a belief at best. We can take it as "the author
> believes that a dog looks at a cat". Now what is {xy fatci}? It's a
> claim that some fact X corresponds to reality. Does it have to be the
> absolute truth? No! The same rule applies here: "the author believes
> that the fact X corresponds to reality". So, let's try to interpret
> the same sentence in a logical way:
>
> .i lo du'u lo gerku ca catlu lo mlatu cu fatci
> .i lo gerku ca catlu lo mlatu
> A dog looks at a cat.
>
> That's it. From a logical point of view, the truth-value of the two
> sentences is the same. So, don't be afraid and don't be misled!
>
> Argument: there is not much use for such a word.
>
> Why not? We can very well talk about something that we don't know. For
> example, we don't know for sure whether the space of our universe is
> infinite. However, we have the words "infinite space", we have the
> symbol "=E2=88=9E", and we have a lot of uses for it.
>
> Now to the actual examples. We have the words {nu} and {fasnu} to
> convert between actual claims and events:
>
> .i lo gerku ca catlu lo mlatu
> .i ko'a nu go'i
> .i ko'a fasnu
>
> Very easy! Remember, that {ko'a fasnu} doesn't have to be "the
> absolute truth". The same way, the words {du'u} and {fatci} allow to
> convert between actual claims and facts.
>
> .i lo gerku ca catlu lo mlatu
> .i ko'e du'u go'i
> .i ko'e fatci
>
> And again, {ko'e fatci} is just a claim, the same way that {lo gerku
> ca catlu lo mlatu} is a claim.
> .i de'u melbi mi .i xu go'i do ji'a
>
> Another example:
>
> .i mi na mulno birti lo du'u ro lo se djuno be mi bei lo to'e mucti
> munje cu fatci
> I'm not completely sure that all that I know about the real world are
> actual facts.
>
> Argument: we don't need {fatci} because we have {jetnu}.
>
> There are similar gusmu in Lojban with different sets of places, and
> there are uses for each of them. First, the truth values of {lo gerku
> ca catlu lo mlatu} and {lo du'u lo gerku ca catlu lo mlatu cu jetnu}
> can be different depending on the referents of implicit {zo'e} at
> jetnu2. So we'd need to put something explicit there, maybe {zi'o} or
> something that means "reality". Do we have a word for "reality"? :)
> And then, why bother, when we have a nice gismu {fatci}? :)
>
> .i xu do ca ca'o xebni zo fatci .i ko joi mi casnu
>
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