Received: from mail-ey0-f189.google.com ([209.85.215.189]:44306) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SfVyw-0001G3-2W; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:32 -0700 Received: by eaad14 with SMTP id d14sf1562174eaa.16 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=A5gyQdy1urKvzzrm4/bOCylxdGUPLBXY2yIMTkGol5Q=; b=ehlqpbEzJMm6jKfb0tRR9HkfCgxPzZDVkJRqd29Bd8+JPr2NpiQL8H6KIyTkCPcSWP BtL6k9ijuOvzeQnnIjjkbfPAj1UdrLpEYVOtwpUcgPwa7lnGT8FU+rhWhEo4L+2GQ6Gg 8OMC6OsG3s6JQ4IdZ1+Diy3eul+5vjFKjQ/Bg= Received: by 10.204.152.197 with SMTP id h5mr295977bkw.21.1339764621559; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.130.152 with SMTP id t24ls1416970bks.1.gmail; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.149.210 with SMTP id u18mr834916bkv.1.1339764620058; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.149.210 with SMTP id u18mr834915bkv.1.1339764620023; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com (mail-lb0-f179.google.com [209.85.217.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ig3si7030566bkc.3.2012.06.15.05.50.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.179; Received: by lban1 with SMTP id n1so2598371lba.38 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.166 with SMTP id l6mr2575867lbh.68.1339764619508; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.46.36 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <33719377-1862-475F-B480-72E47C1EEDC2@gmail.com> References: <173a7e7d-d99c-4a04-9d58-13f3bd639fd9@googlegroups.com> <6e2a3812-eb9e-4f0c-af39-e8c8f743f0d8@p27g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> <33719377-1862-475F-B480-72E47C1EEDC2@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 06:50:19 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Bridi as Sumti From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d040169633a7d0b04c28242cb X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 12063 --f46d040169633a7d0b04c28242cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "le" used to be the most common article because it was the most generic. While the most simple meaning of le- "something which the speaker describes as being one or more things that can be the x1 of [broda]" and lo- "something which actually is one or more things that is/are the x1 of [broda]", before the adoption of the "xorlo" proposal, lo had the additional restriction that what is being described must not only actually be a [broda] x1, but that it must also exist. So, for instance, to say "pa lo re gerku" would not merely state that you are talking about a single dog of two in total, but also that in the entirety of existence, there are only two dogs. Also, one can not refer to mythological creatures, such as unicorns, because at no time and in no place, so far as we are aware, at any rate, do unicorns exist. As you can see, this made the pre-xorlo definition of lo rather problematic, and because of this, it was seldom used. Since the adoption of xorlo, however, all of the problematic portion of the meaning of lo has been dropped. The simplest way to show the difference between lo and le I can think of off the top of my head is this: I have a dog which "thinks" it is a human. (By thinks, I mean it displays human mannerisms such as (attempting to) walk on two legs, eat at the table, use the toilet, take showers, put on clothes, etc.) Because this dog is a dog, one cannot refer to the dog as "lo remna", however, one is able to refer to the dog as "le remna", because you aren't saying the dog /is/ a human, you are merely describing the dog as one due to the dog's human-like behaviours. On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 6:03 AM, Sebastian wrote: > I've noticed that the most common article for abstractions is le. Could > somebody explain why? > What's the difference between "mi nelci le nu mi bajra" and "mi nelci lo > nu bajra"? > > Thanks in advance (how do you say go'i in lojban?) > /jongausib > > Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone > > 15 jun 2012 kl. 08:22 skrev ianek : > > > You're very right. > > > > On 15 Cze, 07:51, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> True, but regardless, you still have to lo (or le, or la) to make it a > >> sumti. In your example, the nu converts the bridi into an event, and > the lo > >> converts the event into a sumti. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:18 PM, ianek wrote: > >>> It depends on what you want to achieve. If you want a sumti with > >>> filled other places, do as aionys says. If you want an abstraction (t= o > >>> refer to an event, fact, property etc.) you have to use some > >>> abstractor, like {lo nu ko'a broda ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u [kei]} to refe= r > >>> to an event described by the bridi. > >> > >>> mu'o mi'e ianek > >> > >>> On 15 Cze, 00:32, Jaiden Bell wrote: > >>>> Can anyone help me understand how to turn a bridi into a sumti? > >> > >>>> Thanks in advance. > >> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m > . > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > >> > >> -- > >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. > >> > >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --f46d040169633a7d0b04c28242cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "le" used to be the most common article because it was the most g= eneric. While the most simple meaning of le- "something which the spea= ker describes as being one or more things that can be the x1 of [broda]&quo= t; and lo- "something which actually is one or more things that is/are= the x1 of [broda]", before the adoption of the "xorlo" prop= osal, lo had the additional restriction that what is being described must n= ot only actually be a [broda] x1, but that it must also exist. So, for inst= ance, to say "pa lo re gerku" would not merely state that you are= talking about a single dog of two in total, but also that in the entirety = of existence, there are only two dogs. Also, one can not refer to mythologi= cal creatures, such as unicorns, because at no time and in no place, so far= as we are aware, at any rate, do unicorns exist. As you can see, this made= the pre-xorlo definition of lo rather problematic, and because of this, it= was seldom used.

Since the adoption of xorlo, however, all of the problematic portion of= the meaning of lo has been dropped. The simplest way to show the differenc= e between lo and le I can think of off the top of my head is this:

I have a dog which "thinks" it is a human. (By thinks, I mean it = displays human mannerisms such as (attempting to) walk on two legs, eat at = the table, use the toilet, take showers, put on clothes, etc.)

Becau= se this dog is a dog, one cannot refer to the dog as "lo remna", = however, one is able to refer to the dog as "le remna", because y= ou aren't saying the dog /is/ a human, you are merely describing the do= g as one due to the dog's human-like behaviours.

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 6:03 AM, Sebastian <= span dir=3D"ltr"><so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:
I've noticed that the most common article for abstractions is le. Could= somebody explain why?
What's the difference between "mi nelci le nu mi bajra" and &= quot;mi nelci lo nu bajra"?

Thanks in advance (how do you say go'i in lojban?)
/jongausib

Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone

15 jun 2012 kl. 08:22 skrev ianek <= janek37@gmail.com>:

> You're very right.
>
> On 15 Cze, 07:51, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> True, but regardless, you still have to lo (or le, or la) to make = it a
>> sumti. In your example, the nu converts the bridi into an event, a= nd the lo
>> converts the event into a sumti.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:18 PM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It depends on what you want to achieve. If you want a sumti wi= th
>>> filled other places, do as aionys says. If you want an abstrac= tion (to
>>> refer to an event, fact, property etc.) you have to use some >>> abstractor, like {lo nu ko'a broda ko'e ko'i ko= 9;o ko'u [kei]} to refer
>>> to an event described by the bridi.
>>
>>> mu'o mi'e ianek
>>
>>> On 15 Cze, 00:32, Jaiden Bell <azurit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Can anyone help me understand how to turn a bridi into a s= umti?
>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle Groups
>>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--f46d040169633a7d0b04c28242cb--