Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:62066)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCKvA2oWYARCj5_z_BBoEbra0MA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SpQ0v-0003qu-Rr; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:32 -0700
Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3sf2956266obb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from
         :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=QCiYoekBEfU+dMROYb1XowKEyI+pXjP55kseWFvHEyE=;
        b=RZ1BWhF+sHTYdef3paZN6cO/z7A4jMWtziG/g5MnYzs5nh107i9zUzo8G8LQ556c9T
         n0wp9rbUVQwKbMzNRw0hxIBGQuOVwpQP0pGYA9sQCqGm6LkPlMEOwxGuWM/OCYzv+IYN
         OKFSGlXELFy5OidKHWainUmDWwgEGFO8Jfb8w=
Received: by 10.52.34.8 with SMTP id v8mr3820277vdi.5.1342124963247;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.52.66.242 with SMTP id i18ls1432993vdt.5.gmail; Thu, 12 Jul
 2012 13:29:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.75.161 with SMTP id d1mr43930584vdw.2.1342124962165;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.75.161 with SMTP id d1mr43930582vdw.2.1342124962155;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vb0-f45.google.com (mail-vb0-f45.google.com [209.85.212.45])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l12si266614vdf.3.2012.07.12.13.29.22
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.45;
Received: by vbbfn1 with SMTP id fn1so2242071vbb.32
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.92.228 with SMTP id cp4mr22037122vdb.42.1342124961764; Thu,
 12 Jul 2012 13:29:21 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.52.24.193 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:29:01 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAKOEKkQZ7d3k8c6Owhew6-a4MFnehWWjVogk8V_5Z=KgiuvFGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c88854f6-fea2-443e-948f-5dc91d49d356@googlegroups.com> <CAKOEKkQZ7d3k8c6Owhew6-a4MFnehWWjVogk8V_5Z=KgiuvFGA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:29:01 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOQ8VDV5qzSxCapp-DbYp6dRXbyW2EjjerZRr03PHtp+sXgEcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Conlang test sentence failure.
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /
Content-Length: 3014

Indeed, the issue is that English lets us use two connected adjectives
on one single noun, but yielding two different kinds of referents. {lo
clarai je toryrai nanmu} says that for each of its referents that they
have the additional properties {clarai} and {toryrai} which is silly,
va'i illogical. Really, we need to create two sets of referents by
using two descriptors: {lo clarai nanmu .e lo toryrai nanmu}.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 12 July 2012 10:05, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>   The problem is the assumption that you can directly translate the sentence
> from English with the same kind of syntax, and in the same order.  But what
> we are really talking about are two beings, lo traji be lo ka tordu bei fo
> lo'i munje nanmu be'o , and lo traji be lo ka clani bei fo lo'i munje nanmu
> be'o.  And if we join those with jo'u, we can certainly have them join the
> circus in lojban (  lo traji be lo ka tordu bei fo lo'i munje nanmu be'o
> kujo'u lo traji be lo ka clani bei fo lo'i munje nanmu be'o cu cmibi'o le
> tigbe'e ) But I think what you really want is : le remei poi cmibi'o lo
> tigbe'e cu traji lo ka tordu fa'u clani  keifo lo'i munje nanmu
>
>               --gejsypa
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:11 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Conlang+Test+Sentences
>> The tallest and smallest men in the world both joined the circus.
>>
>> lo clarai e lo toryrai be lo ro nanmu pe le munje cu cmibi'o le tigbe'e
>> It's not exactly right, because {be lo ro...} applies only to {toryrai}.
>> Maybe:
>> lo clarai je toryrai be lo ro nanmu pe le munje cu cmibi'o le tigbe'e
>>
>> The second solution fails as well. How to say "(The tallest and smallest)
>> men in the world"?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/p2cHK8yVLyYJ.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.