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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:31:49 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo nu pilno zo kakne ce'onai lo sucta
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On 12 July 2012 17:15,  <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
> But that one doesn't say who the talker is. It says "I can (event-of
> unspecified-it talks)". Isn't that a problem?
>

Depends on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the x1 of
kakne *must* find its way into the abstraction of kakne2.
In fact, a previous discussion about the properties of kakne2 led me
(and a handful of others) to believe that kakne2 should be a
ka-abstraction, where the {ce'u} refers to the value of kakne1.

{mi kakne lo ka [ce'u] tavla} "I can talk."

mu'o mi'e la tsani

> On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 23:25:41 UTC+1, selpa'i wrote:
>>
>> Am 11.07.2012 19:50, schrieb jammyatjammy@gmail.com:
>> > le munvelski be zo kakne du la'e zoi gy x1 is able to do/be/capable of
>> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state) gy .i
>> > xu zoi gy being gy nibyti'i lo du'u zo kakne kakne lo selpli secau zo
>> > nu to noi simsa nunpli fi tu'a le vi jufra toi
>> >
>> > The description of "kakne" is "x1 is able to do/be/capable of
>> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state)". Does
>> > "being" imply that "kakne" can be used without "nu" after it, and
>> > instead using a simple sumti (as I did above).
>> >
>> > Probably a simpler example is {mi kakne lo tavla be fo la lojban.} -
>> > "I can-be a talker in-language Lojban" .i xu di'u xagytadji lo nu
>> > pilno zo kakne
>>
>> It says "do/be" because those two are the same thing in Lojban. There is
>> no to be or to do. That is, there is no difference between "I am a man"
>> {mi nanmu }and "I [do] walk" {mi cadzu}. It's always just an argument
>> (sumti) filling a place of a predicate (selbri). You still need an
>> abstraction for kakne. {mi kakne lo ka/nu tavla} means both "I can be a
>> talker" and "I can talk".
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>>
>> --
>> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
>> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla
>> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata
>>
> --
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