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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:13:48 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo nu pilno zo kakne ce'onai lo sucta
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It doesn't require a redefinition because the types of places are not
static. In fact, it's legal, albeit shunned upon, to use concrete
sumti in abstraction places. Regardless, there's no redefinition
required if one wants to use a property place in kakne2.

On 12 July 2012 17:42, mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would that require a redefinition, something like "x1 is able to
> have/exhibit property x2", or would that be legal now?
>
>
> On Thursday, 12 July 2012 22:31:49 UTC+1, tsani wrote:
>>
>> On 12 July 2012 17:15,  <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > But that one doesn't say who the talker is. It says "I can (event-of
>> > unspecified-it talks)". Isn't that a problem?
>> >
>>
>> Depends on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the x1 of
>> kakne *must* find its way into the abstraction of kakne2.
>> In fact, a previous discussion about the properties of kakne2 led me
>> (and a handful of others) to believe that kakne2 should be a
>> ka-abstraction, where the {ce'u} refers to the value of kakne1.
>>
>> {mi kakne lo ka [ce'u] tavla} "I can talk."
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>>
>> > On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 23:25:41 UTC+1, selpa'i wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Am 11.07.2012 19:50, schrieb jammyatjammy@gmail.com:
>> >> > le munvelski be zo kakne du la'e zoi gy x1 is able to do/be/capable
>> >> > of
>> >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state) gy .i
>> >> > xu zoi gy being gy nibyti'i lo du'u zo kakne kakne lo selpli secau zo
>> >> > nu to noi simsa nunpli fi tu'a le vi jufra toi
>> >> >
>> >> > The description of "kakne" is "x1 is able to do/be/capable of
>> >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state)". Does
>> >> > "being" imply that "kakne" can be used without "nu" after it, and
>> >> > instead using a simple sumti (as I did above).
>> >> >
>> >> > Probably a simpler example is {mi kakne lo tavla be fo la lojban.} -
>> >> > "I can-be a talker in-language Lojban" .i xu di'u xagytadji lo nu
>> >> > pilno zo kakne
>> >>
>> >> It says "do/be" because those two are the same thing in Lojban. There
>> >> is
>> >> no to be or to do. That is, there is no difference between "I am a man"
>> >> {mi nanmu }and "I [do] walk" {mi cadzu}. It's always just an argument
>> >> (sumti) filling a place of a predicate (selbri). You still need an
>> >> abstraction for kakne. {mi kakne lo ka/nu tavla} means both "I can be a
>> >> talker" and "I can talk".
>> >>
>> >> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
>> >> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla
>> >> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata
>> >>
>> > --
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>> >
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>
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