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[209.68.5.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id ad4si887503igc.1.2012.07.21.16.45.31; Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.68.5.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) client-ip=209.68.5.9; Received: (qmail 91712 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2012 23:45:30 -0000 Received: from 87.160.144.199 (HELO ?192.168.1.33?) (87.160.144.199) by relay00.pair.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 2012 23:45:30 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 87.160.144.199 Message-ID: <500B3F19.1000304@plasmatix.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:45:29 +0200 From: selpa'i User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ko klama ma References: <500B129A.6050000@plasmatix.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: m3o@plasmatix.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.68.5.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) smtp.mail=m3o@plasmatix.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080705050205060805020407" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 12310 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080705050205060805020407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Am 21.07.2012 23:01, schrieb ianek: > On 21 Lip, 22:35, selpa'i wrote: >> Am 21.07.2012 22:02, schrieb tanbla: >> >>> coi >>> I was wondering how multiple questions/commands work in a sentence. >>> For example, what does {ko klama ma} mean? {xu ko klama}? {xu ko klama >>> ma}? >> >> I interpret a question containing both {xu} and {ma} as being two >> questions. (1a) is roughly equal to (1b): >> >> (1a) .i xu do viska ma >> >> (1b) .i xu do viska da .i je do viska ma >> "Do you see something, and what is it?". >> >> {ko klama ma} is a bit unusual, but you could understand it as "Where do >> I want you to go?". Again, (2a) and (2b) are roughly equivalent: > > I see it otherwise. A sentence with {ko} is always a command, not a > question about a command. So for me this is something like {ko klama i > do klama ma}, ie. 'Go! Where will you go?'. If we take {ko klama ma} as an example, we can analyze it like this: Ignoring klama3,4,5 we have: [[klama]] = ?x ?D. ?y ?D. x klama y [[ko klama]] =?y ?D. ko klama y If both {ko} and any number of {ma} are present, {ko} takes precedence in filling its place: [[ko klama ma]] =?x ?D. ?y ?D. x klama y = ?y ?D. ko klama y (= mi do minde lo nu do ce'u klama) = ko klama ma (= mi do minde lo nu do ma klama) That is, we first have the denotation "ko klama y" and then fill the remaining place with a question about what belongs in that place. This means we are asking about the destination of klama *within* the command. The lowest priority argument (ma) is applied last. Similarly, for (simplified) {xu ko klama}, the xu is lower "priority", but it does not compete for any sumti-places, so we simply get a questioned predication (I'm using "?" to indicate that). Again omitting unnecessary places: [[klama]] = ?x ?D. x klama [[ko klama]] = ko klama (= mi do minde lo nu do klama) [[(ko klama)? ]] = xu ko klama (= xu mi do minde lo nu do klama) This yields the hierarchy of order of application: ko > ma > xu This effectively makes UI (most importantly {xu}) the most powerful operators, because they come last and swallow up everything else that happened before them. Conversely, things like imperatives (ko) or negation (NA) are relatively weak, as they are applied much earlier. The complete hierarchy in my opinion is: NA > ko > ma > UI Pardon me if I forgot something, it's way past bed-time :) mu'o mi'e la selpa'i -- .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --------------080705050205060805020407 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Am 21.07.2012 23:01, schrieb ianek:

On 21 Lip, 22:35, selpa'i <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:

Am 21.07.2012 22:02, schrieb tanbla:

coi
I was wondering how multiple questions/commands work in a sentence.
For example, what does {ko klama ma} mean? {xu ko klama}? {xu ko klama
ma}?


I interpret a question containing both {xu} and {ma} as being two
questions. (1a) is roughly equal to (1b):

(1a) .i xu do viska ma

(1b) .i xu do viska da .i je do viska ma
"Do you see something, and what is it?".

{ko klama ma} is a bit unusual, but you could understand it as "Where do
I want you to go?". Again, (2a) and (2b) are roughly equivalent:


I see it otherwise. A sentence with {ko} is always a command, not a
question about a command. So for me this is something like {ko klama i
do klama ma}, ie. 'Go! Where will you go?'.

If we take {ko klama ma} as an example, we can analyze it like this: Ignoring klama3,4,5 we have: [[klama]] = λx ∈D. λy ∈D. x klama y [[ko klama]] = λy ∈D. ko klama y If both {ko} and any number of {ma} are present, {ko} takes precedence in filling its place:[[ko klama ma]] = λx ∈D. λy ∈D. x klama y =λy ∈D. ko klama y (= mi do minde lo nu do ce'u klama) =ko klama ma (= mi do minde lo nu do ma klama) That is, we first have the denotation "ko klama y" and then fill the remaining place with a question about what belongs in that place. This means we are asking about the destination of klama *within* the command. The lowest priority argument (ma) is applied last.Similarly, for (simplified) {xu ko klama}, the xu is lower "priority", but it does not compete for any sumti-places, so we simply get a questioned predication (I'm using "?" to indicate that). Again omitting unnecessary places:[[klama]] = λx ∈D. x klama [[ko klama]] =ko klama (= mi do minde lo nu do klama)[[(ko klama)? ]] = xu ko klama (= xu mi do minde lo nu do klama)This yields the hierarchy of order of application: ko > ma > xu This effectively makes UI (most importantly {xu}) the most powerful operators, because they come last and swallow up everything else that happened before them.Conversely, things like imperatives (ko) or negation (NA) are relatively weak, as they are applied much earlier. The complete hierarchy in my opinion is: NA > ko > ma > UI Pardon me if I forgot something, it's way past bed-time :) mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

--
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