On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 4:50 AM, ianek <janek37= @gmail.com> wrote:

You basically confirmed what I was saying, but you formally disagreed
with me. I don't understand. {se} acts on selbri, BAI, JA and some
other things, but not on NU. It acts on selbri built with NU, just
like in your examples.

{se} acts on /anything/ wit= h an x2. {du'u} is a NU which has an x2.
=A0

On 7 Sie, 09:47, Jonathan Jones <ey= eo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:15 AM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "cmavo clusters" in jbovlaste are somewhat messy, from = what I've seen.
> >http://camxes.lojban.org/camxes/?text=3Dse+du%27u+broda=
>
> The {se} still acts on {du'u}, not {du'u broda}.
>
> Whatever comes after a NU, until the {kei} (elided or not), is "e= aten" by
> the NU.
>
> So {[zo'e] du'u broda [kei] [zo'e]} means "x1 is pred= ication "broda"
> expressed in sentence x2".
>
> {se} merely switches the x1 and x2 of {du'u}.

It's easier pe'i to see it as switching x1 and x2 of {du'= u broda},
because places are primarily property of selbri, not abstraction
markers.

Abstraction markers /are/ selbri. That= 9;s why they have places.
=A0

> So, for example:
>
> du'u mi nelci lo blanu kei zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy
>
> and
>
> .i zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy se du'u mi nelci lo blanu
>
> are equivalent.

Yes, and how it proves me wrong? I know all that, of course. {du'= u mi
nelci lo blanu kei} is a selbri with two places and can be converted
with se. Why do we need to assume that SE act on NU if such assumption
is not needed to explain the grammar?

Because it&#= 39;s not an assumption. It's a fact.
=A0

> You may want to read http://dag.github.com/cll/11/7/

I love how you still treat me as a complete co'a cilre.

No, I treat you like some who apparently needs to read the = relevant section of the official text on our language.
=A0

mu'o mi'e ianek

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > =A0mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> > On 7 Sie, 08:02, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 11:49 PM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Definition of {du'u}:
> > > > x1 is predication [bridi] expressed in sentence x2
>
> > > > So {se} works not directly on {du'u}, but on {du= 9;u broda}, wich means
> > > > 'x1 is a fact of broda expressed in sentence x2'= ;. Then {lo du'u broda}
> > > > means 'a fact of broda' and {lo se du'u} me= ans 'a sentence expressing
> > > > a fact of broda'.
>
> > > No. [se} works directly on {du'u}.
> > > sedu'u<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/sedu%27u>
>
> > > mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> > > > On 7 Sie, 06:02, Pierre Abbat <p...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> > > > > On Monday 06 August 2012 23:51:58 Luke Bergen wrot= e:
>
> > > > > > =A0Is that true? =A0If it were "lo du= 9;u mi prami do" it would be true
> > for
> > > > sure.
> > > > > > =A0But isn't "sedu'u" the t= ext which expresses the bridi x1?
>
> > > > > > sedu'u has always kind of confused me. = =A0It's not a bridi, it's a
> > "text
> > > > > > expressing [bridi] which is x2", but not= the kind of "text" that
> > you
> > > > get
> > > > > > with lu li'u?
>
> > > > > "do cusku lo sedu'u mi prami do" is = equivalent to "do cusku lu do
> > prami
> > > > mi
> > > > > li'u" (except that in the first case it c= ould have been said in
> > Greek or
> > > > > Ithkuil or anything else).
>
> > > > > Pierre
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solel= y lunar calendar.
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to= the Google
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> > > > "Lojban Beginners" group.
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> > > > For more options, visit this group at
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>
> > > --
> > > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi p= atfu do zo'o
> > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo= 'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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