Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:56628) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T03Ze-0008W3-9s; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:23 -0700 Received: by ggcs5 with SMTP id s5sf2376634ggc.16 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UhQilW1NJZPju6uGT9Uf+vXtEUJvQ+fIlMf59sIHvz0=; b=aXSmGAjeCnvXp1RXYJtRwBM3Y5ZEZkUKKnfxw4svbeak5xe7OUn3Bgx8q/sQby81qk 0y7kCKI/folRS3/bbYtIMtXgNiRezDt/3JAdci+1Xoqf+36k1QMKc9FGBQU5RyKPEIWm zQY+OqYBjbviE665NyOxf3TBOVldJoCZ9fXwg= Received: by 10.52.21.235 with SMTP id y11mr762928vde.4.1344660311517; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.148.143 with SMTP id p15ls3795230vcv.9.gmail; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.58.206 with SMTP id t14mr534177veq.16.1344660310999; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.58.206 with SMTP id t14mr534176veq.16.1344660310976; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f176.google.com (mail-vc0-f176.google.com [209.85.220.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t4si126865vds.3.2012.08.10.21.45.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.176; Received: by vcbfl11 with SMTP id fl11so2050146vcb.7 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.95.46 with SMTP id dh14mr3477728vdb.114.1344660310642; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:45:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.193 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:44:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References:

<371f2346-48d0-469e-9a5e-2fd716715a52@m13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com> <201208102355.03798.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Jacob Errington Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:44:50 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: my first translation To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3071cc6828cf1f04c6f620d1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 9632 --20cf3071cc6828cf1f04c6f620d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For what it's worth, {lo matne} does refer to a mass of butter, because butter sort of only comes as a mass. That is to say that the only things that make sense in matne1 are masses, and that therefore, {lo matne}, referring to one or more matne1, is inherently referring to mass. {loi} (and by extension {lo'i} and all the le-based and la-based friends) are just convenient shortenings for LAhE+lo compounds (assuming a naturalistic interpretation of the way LAhE work WRT quantifiers.) That being said, if using {lo} produces a symbol whose referent(s) is(are) one (or more) individual(s), but a mass is desired, then applying the appropriate LAhE, in this case {lu'o}, effectively solves that problem. Let's say I'm being attacked by a group of soldiers; it might not be the case that each one of them personally attacks me. In particular, their commander, who may be equally armed and equally dangerous, is probably not going to personally inflict any harm to me, but of course, without him or her, the operation might not have been a success. Therefore, it is certainly appropriate for me to use {loi sonci mi gunta}, because the normal referents of sonci1 are individuals, not masses. Regardless, the emphasis of plurality is unimportant given the context in which these words are actually being spoken. If a fleet of ships bearing the american flag appears, for instance, loudly proclaiming {mi'e lo merko,} I think it's pretty clear that the appropriate translation is "We're the Americans"/"We're America". mu'o On 11 August 2012 00:02, .arpis. wrote: > That seems to be exemplifying the difference between individual and > collective. > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Friday 10 August 2012 16:20:18 ianek wrote: > >> {lai}, {loi}, {lei} are not plural. A mass can be equally well > >> composed of one component. That said, I don't quite get what masses > >> are in Lojban, eg. why {lo matne} can't be a mass: > >> http://dag.github.com/cll/6/3/ Whether or not a mass is correct in the > >> context of Borg, plurality is not implied. > > > > If there is one stick of butter somewhere, it is equally correct to call > > it "lo matne" and "loi matne". If there are two or more sticks of butter, > > there is a semantic difference between "lo matne" and "loi matne", which > is a > > bit hard to explain without some predicate. Butters don't carry pianos, > or > > take any action, and they are subdivisible. > > > > Here's my example of "lo/loi" being the opposite of singular/plural: > > lo mi kerfa cu jdari .iku'i loi mi kerfa cu ranti > > My hairs are hard, but my hair is soft. > > > > Pierre > > -- > > li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du > > li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --20cf3071cc6828cf1f04c6f620d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For what it's worth, {lo matne} does refer to a mass of butter, because= butter sort of only comes as a mass. That is to say that the only things t= hat make sense in matne1 are masses, and that therefore, {lo matne}, referr= ing to one or more matne1, is inherently referring to mass. {loi} (and by e= xtension {lo'i} and all the le-based and la-based friends) are just con= venient shortenings for LAhE+lo compounds (assuming a naturalistic interpre= tation of the way LAhE work WRT quantifiers.) That being said, if using {lo= } produces a symbol whose referent(s) is(are) one (or more) individual(s), = but a mass is desired, then applying the appropriate LAhE, in this case {lu= 'o}, effectively solves that problem. Let's say I'm being attac= ked by a group of soldiers; it might not be the case that each one of them = personally attacks me. In particular, their commander, who may be equally a= rmed and equally dangerous, is probably not going to personally inflict any= harm to me, but of course, without him or her, the operation might not hav= e been a success. Therefore, it is certainly appropriate for me to use {loi= sonci mi gunta}, because the normal referents of sonci1 are individuals, n= ot masses.

Regardless, the emphasis of plurality is unimportant given t= he context in which these words are actually being spoken. If a fleet of sh= ips bearing the american flag appears, for instance, loudly proclaiming {mi= 'e lo merko,} I think it's pretty clear that the appropriate transl= ation is "We're the Americans"/"We're America".=

mu'o

On 11 August 2012 00:02, .ar= pis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
That seems to be exemplifying the difference between individual and collect= ive.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> On Friday 10 August 2012 16:20:18 ianek wrote:
>> {lai}, {loi}, {lei} are not plural. A mass can be equally well
>> composed of one component. That said, I don't quite get what m= asses
>> are in Lojban, eg. why {lo matne} can't be a mass:
>> http:= //dag.github.com/cll/6/3/ Whether or not a mass is correct in the
>> context of Borg, plurality is not implied.
>
> If there is one stick of butter somewhere, it is equally correct to ca= ll
> it "lo matne" and "loi matne". If there are two or= more sticks of butter,
> there is a semantic difference between "lo matne" and "= loi matne", which is a
> bit hard to explain without some predicate. Butters don't carry pi= anos, or
> take any action, and they are subdivisible.
>
> Here's my example of "lo/loi" being the opposite of sing= ular/plural:
> lo mi kerfa cu jdari .iku'i loi mi kerfa cu ranti
> My hairs are hard, but my hair is soft.
>
> Pierre
> --
> li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
> li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
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--
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