Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:61850) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T03oy-0000F9-9Z; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:15 -0700 Received: by qcac11 with SMTP id c11sf2383641qca.16 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0R7jc3gfnuV8DjT+iLOUp2NDCF4kxqvoZBEmtTHU0qs=; b=dNXuj7wUO1d9AxtCRQQzPqiOcR1mW5tKr0Sqqby7Kg7AofiBXnE0icNMxpJ5k50Ups V7ZLoquW/hQXarLhEWpGkx3Jgn0p+kD9QE9IFC5fkDGdg4yVGttSBM3GM6LB93tHHOju 1HMBOTArt7pwmooKt8ILYEa0dbESs3pVidz4o= Received: by 10.52.97.102 with SMTP id dz6mr776665vdb.2.1344661261293; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.69.174 with SMTP id f14ls3779417vdu.2.gmail; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.229.73 with SMTP id so9mr2102810vec.9.1344661260723; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.229.73 with SMTP id so9mr2102809vec.9.1344661260713; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f176.google.com (mail-vc0-f176.google.com [209.85.220.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y20si132217vdd.0.2012.08.10.22.01.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.176; Received: by vcbfl11 with SMTP id fl11so2778269vcb.35 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.196.174 with SMTP id in14mr5028185vec.18.1344661260568; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:01:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.58.252.104 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:00:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <371f2346-48d0-469e-9a5e-2fd716715a52@m13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com> <201208102355.03798.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: ".arpis." Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 01:00:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: my first translation To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 3331 > Regardless, the emphasis of plurality is unimportant given the context in > which these words are actually being spoken. If a fleet of ships bearing the > american flag appears, for instance, loudly proclaiming {mi'e lo merko,} I > think it's pretty clear that the appropriate translation is "We're the > Americans"/"We're America". zo'o Unless context overrules, e.g. in the case of Scandinavia and the World. > > mu'o > > > On 11 August 2012 00:02, .arpis. wrote: >> >> That seems to be exemplifying the difference between individual and >> collective. >> >> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> > On Friday 10 August 2012 16:20:18 ianek wrote: >> >> {lai}, {loi}, {lei} are not plural. A mass can be equally well >> >> composed of one component. That said, I don't quite get what masses >> >> are in Lojban, eg. why {lo matne} can't be a mass: >> >> http://dag.github.com/cll/6/3/ Whether or not a mass is correct in the >> >> context of Borg, plurality is not implied. >> > >> > If there is one stick of butter somewhere, it is equally correct to call >> > it "lo matne" and "loi matne". If there are two or more sticks of >> > butter, >> > there is a semantic difference between "lo matne" and "loi matne", which >> > is a >> > bit hard to explain without some predicate. Butters don't carry pianos, >> > or >> > take any action, and they are subdivisible. >> > >> > Here's my example of "lo/loi" being the opposite of singular/plural: >> > lo mi kerfa cu jdari .iku'i loi mi kerfa cu ranti >> > My hairs are hard, but my hair is soft. >> > >> > Pierre >> > -- >> > li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du >> > li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.