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Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:24:48 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Where should I use sets and where should I
 use masses?
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On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:52 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 Wrz, 09:04, tijlan <jbotij...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Can a set engage in an event?
>
> Not a set, but its members:
> x1 (set) has members who mutually/reciprocally x2 (event [x1 should be
> reflexive in 1+ sumti]).
>
> "mutually" is not something similar to carrying a piano, together or
> otherwise. It's a property of a set, not its members.

It's the members of the set, not the set, who mutually x2.

> It's a property of being a clique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clique_(graph_theory).

If you restrict "simxu" to the cliques of graph theory, you can't use
it for something like:

lo zajba pu simxu lo ka ce'u ce'u sanli kei gi'e se morna lo remna pramide
"The gymnasts stood on one another's shoulders and formed a human pyramid."

It's better to create a more specialized word for the more specialized
meaning and leave the basic word for the more general meaning.

> That way it's more logical, and hey, Lojban was designed to be a
> logical language, not an easy language (we already have Esperanto!).

How is it more logical? If a simxu is a set, you can always define:

ko'a simcmigunma ko'e = ko'a gunma lo cmima be lo simxu be ko'e

"simcmigunma" is no more nor less logical than "simxu". It's just more
useful, so it should get the simpler form.

> Otherwise we can throw away sets completely, because now you can't say
> {lo ro jbopre ku zvati ti gi'e se cmima mi}. If you can do with masses
> everyting you can do with sets, we don't need them.

Exactly! For every broda that for whatever reason was defined as
having a set in x1 you can define a new selbri "brodycmigunma" with
meaning "ko'a gunma lo cmima be lo broda (be ko'e bei ko'i ...), with
an x1 argument that is more tractable than a set, so sets are not
really needed. Sets are useful in a language without plural reference,
but if you have plural reference it doesn't make much sense to have
sets.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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