Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:41681)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBCD6T3EC2UIBB6FJ32BQKGQEET5YDPI@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TMWMh-00043F-E1; Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:55 -0700
Received: by mail-gg0-f189.google.com with SMTP id o6sf1948767ggm.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=InAqcuqlc+Ut/JzRwrUi2fohbCCOZnvjU6NEzEvW8yk=;
        b=wzmeIRNVbeUUW9baoxsOJkx52c8EUjrDBub1UdcID6J3ZVg0Hbhiasi1RR9IP+1poI
         Om+dZKyIKcxrOA2yGA3/Xid+0lSGO/IAcaf7AhrxTLuBj0TGZoggQeARkqwKSITR2ZqS
         GHCeVekRBJXETvpJ1sG7tN7XXhKUM7qJ3VXbGrJVYx2PZx7iWaNEgKrVkGPertoOmrer
         iPXy7pVFrXPwiF1gxs9/SaYVa0nzyKZOVqLILRCNUY5+V21k7gZPpcNPvgi351ecDqXS
         wUOmxhzxXmZw7uGCwsal3+8TLl7q95HGUuBWsEGI68UcKffJU7HJkYxyms07TX06HFHj
         O81g==
Received: by 10.68.240.103 with SMTP id vz7mr875460pbc.10.1350014200457;
        Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.237.161 with SMTP id vd1ls8922353pbc.3.gmail; Thu, 11 Oct
 2012 20:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.66.90.36 with SMTP id bt4mr759316pab.5.1350014200011;
        Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.66.90.36 with SMTP id bt4mr759315pab.5.1350014200001;
        Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-da0-f46.google.com (mail-da0-f46.google.com [209.85.210.46])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o10si1669544pax.0.2012.10.11.20.56.39
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.46;
Received: by mail-da0-f46.google.com with SMTP id n41so1106930dak.19
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.66.78.69 with SMTP id z5mr7983843paw.14.1350014199701; Thu, 11
 Oct 2012 20:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.136.162 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <3dce2eae-f93d-4ce4-8965-3d6b61a7f7bf@googlegroups.com>
References: <3dce2eae-f93d-4ce4-8965-3d6b61a7f7bf@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:56:39 -0300
Message-ID: <CALMa68qUnNCuLrLVOxPOaKBKSqdW5eMS9SjPMU_DqS_yOynkvw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] I think I can use "kau" to express Japanese
 "ga" and "wa"
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.46 as permitted
 sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /
Content-Length: 3078

You appear to be describing a focus construction in Japanese.
English does it either by giving emphasis to the word "I" or "go"
(prosodic focus), or by a periphrastic construction such as
"It is I who goes" (syntactic focus).

CLL has a recently discussed example that suggests the use of
{kau} as a focus marker in lojban:
(8.4 in http://dag.github.com/cll/11/8). This use, however, is
disputed (see thread "[lojban] {kau} vs. {ba'e}" in the main
discussion list), the contrary opinion being that {ba'e} should
be used instead, mirroring the prosodic focus of English.

I have not participated in that discussion, but the fact is that the
use of {kau} as a focus marker is independent of its use as an
indirect question marker, since the preceding word is a question
word only in the latter. Also, the relation between emphasis and
focus is debatable.

I admit there is a certain ring to the use of {kau} as both indirect
question and focus marker: it is like the focus is replacing the
question word.

Anyway, to me, any informed use is valid, just keep in mind that
this is an undocumented part of lojban: {kau} has never been
clearly defined as focus marker, and {ba'e} is just vaguely defined
to correspond to emphasis.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.



On 11 October 2012 21:21, .iocikun.juj. <yoshikuni.jujo@gmail.com> wrote:
> coi rodo
>
> I'm sorry that I have bad English skill.
> Please forgive it.
>
> English "I go" is "watashi ga iku" or "watashi wa iku" in Japanese.
>
> Who goes? I go. -> watashi ga iku
> What do you do? I go. -> watashi wa iku
>
> The difference is listener's knowledge.
>
> If listener knows that someone go but doesn't know that who go, speaker say
> "watashi ga iku".
> If listener knows that speaker do something but doesn't know that what does
> speaker do, speaker say "watashi wa iku".
>
> "watashi ga iku" and "watashi wa iku" is different at listener's knowledge.
>
> I think I can use "kau" to express the difference.
>
> "watashi ga iku" is "mi kau klama" and
> "watashi wa iku" is "mi klama kau".
>
> I think this usage of "kau" can be more general.
> The "kau" can express listener's knowledge.
>
> Is it right?
> I think it is very good definition of "kau".
>
> ki'e
> mi'e .iocikun.juj.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/AtrR34fofOMJ.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.