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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 13:56:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] "Should" and "would"
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{.ei} fits sometimes (in the {.eiro'a} sense), but I was primarily thinking=
=20
of the use of "should have done x" to mean "x would have optimised your=20
position (in life, &c.)". To take "position" literally, you could say=20
whilst reviewing a chess match "you should have taken that bishop with your=
=20
knight, rather than your pawn". There is no obligation to do this (the=20
erring player could still have won); it is more of a suggestion.

Just before writing that, I noticed that {.e'u} works for some=20
present/future tense "should" instances. "It's a good book; you should read=
=20
it." can be translated with a simple {.e'u ko broda} or {mi stidi lo nu do=
=20
broda}. But this is not easy to turn into a "should have". Maybe "I would=
=20
have suggested..." is a better way to think of it (somehow incorporating=20
the {stidi} solution). So now I'll look at that "would".

{va'o} seems to be a good fit for if... would statements. I've come across=
=20
the fact that abstractions are not necessarily true before. As for {da'i} I=
=20
haven't understood before what it means. It's listed as "supposing", but,=
=20
as a UI, it can't create the structures I'd expect from "supposing". To me,=
=20
"supposing" is usually used in "supposing that x, y", where x is the=20
supposed fact and y is the main statement. But I suppose (zo'o) that your=
=20
explanation makes sense.

I don't understand how you've used {mu'ei}. How can we claim things about=
=20
every alternate history? What if in one of them you had different parents,=
=20
and inherited a few selfishness genes (assuming that this alternate person=
=20
could be considered "you", and not a child from that other parent - be'o -=
=20
who was not born either). I fear I may have misunderstood completely.

On Sunday, October 28, 2012 8:05:40 PM UTC, selpa'i wrote:
>
> Am 28.10.2012 20:27, schrieb mudri:=20
> > Is there any way in Lojban to talk about what one should do, should hav=
e=20
> > done or would do in a given event? I've been looking for a while, but=
=20
> > can't find anything.=20
>
> For "should", the word {.ei} is usually used:=20
>
> .ei do xendo lo cnino=20
> You should be kind to strangers.=20
>
> .ei do ta pu na lebna=20
> You should not have taken that.=20
>
> .ei mi ma zukte=20
> What should I do?=20
>
>
> For "would", it's slightly more difficult. "Would" usually marks a=20
> phrase as non-factual, which is done by {da'i}:=20
>
> ju'o da'i do se pluka=20
> You would surely enjoy it.=20
>
> da'i do se xamgu=20
> It would be good for you.=20
>
>
> Sometimes, the "would" appears together with an if-clause, in which case=
=20
> a {da'i} isn't always needed:=20
>
> mi va'o lo nu [da'i] mi jipci cu na kuckla lo dargu=20
> If I was a chicken, I wouldn't cross the road.=20
>
> Here the {da'i} is not strictly needed, because the event tagged by va'o=
=20
> is not claimed by the speaker. The {da'i} can be used to add emphasis on=
=20
> the non-factualness of the sentence, however.=20
>
>
> There is also a less common way for "would" that uses {mu'ei}:=20
>
> lo nu sidju lo drata kei mi ro mu'ei pluka=20
> I would always enjoy helping others.=20
>
> mi no mu'ei lo du'u do mi slabu cu na djica lo nu mi do speni=20
> In no world in which I know you would I not want to marry you.=20
>
>
> Hope this helps.=20
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i=20
>
> --=20
> do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u=20
>     .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u=20
> ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu=20
>     .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi=20
> gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi=20
>     .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku=20
>
>
> .=20
>

--=20
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jban-beginners/-/o0DzU4Z_WTAJ.
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{.ei} fits sometimes (in the {.eiro'a} sense), but I was primarily thinking=
 of the use of "should have done x" to mean "x would have optimised your po=
sition (in life, &amp;c.)". To take "position" literally, you could say whi=
lst reviewing a chess match "you should have taken that bishop with your kn=
ight, rather than your pawn". There is no obligation to do this (the erring=
 player could still have won); it is more of a suggestion.<div><br></div><d=
iv>Just before writing that, I noticed that {.e'u} works for some present/f=
uture tense "should" instances. "It's a good book; you should read it." can=
 be translated with a simple {.e'u ko broda} or {mi stidi lo nu do broda}. =
But this is not easy to turn into a "should have". Maybe "I would have sugg=
ested..." is a better way to think of it (somehow incorporating the {stidi}=
 solution). So now I'll look at that "would".</div><div><br></div><div>{va'=
o} seems to be a good fit for if... would statements. I've come across the =
fact that abstractions are not necessarily true before. As for {da'i} I hav=
en't understood before what it means. It's listed as "supposing", but, as a=
 UI, it can't create the structures I'd expect from "supposing". To me, "su=
pposing" is usually used in "supposing that x, y", where x is the supposed =
fact and y is the main statement. But I suppose (zo'o) that your explanatio=
n makes sense.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't understand how you've used =
{mu'ei}. How can we claim things about every alternate history? What if in =
one of them you had different parents, and inherited a few selfishness gene=
s (assuming that this alternate person could be considered "you", and not a=
 child from that other parent - be'o - who was not born either). I fear I m=
ay have misunderstood completely.<br><br>On Sunday, October 28, 2012 8:05:4=
0 PM UTC, selpa'i wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Am 28.=
10.2012 20:27, schrieb mudri:
<br>&gt; Is there any way in Lojban to talk about what one should do, shoul=
d have
<br>&gt; done or would do in a given event? I've been looking for a while, =
but
<br>&gt; can't find anything.
<br>
<br>For "should", the word {.ei} is usually used:
<br>
<br>.ei do xendo lo cnino
<br>You should be kind to strangers.
<br>
<br>.ei do ta pu na lebna
<br>You should not have taken that.
<br>
<br>.ei mi ma zukte
<br>What should I do?
<br>
<br>
<br>For "would", it's slightly more difficult. "Would" usually marks a=20
<br>phrase as non-factual, which is done by {da'i}:
<br>
<br>ju'o da'i do se pluka
<br>You would surely enjoy it.
<br>
<br>da'i do se xamgu
<br>It would be good for you.
<br>
<br>
<br>Sometimes, the "would" appears together with an if-clause, in which cas=
e=20
<br>a {da'i} isn't always needed:
<br>
<br>mi va'o lo nu [da'i] mi jipci cu na kuckla lo dargu
<br>If I was a chicken, I wouldn't cross the road.
<br>
<br>Here the {da'i} is not strictly needed, because the event tagged by va'=
o=20
<br>is not claimed by the speaker. The {da'i} can be used to add emphasis o=
n=20
<br>the non-factualness of the sentence, however.
<br>
<br>
<br>There is also a less common way for "would" that uses {mu'ei}:
<br>
<br>lo nu sidju lo drata kei mi ro mu'ei pluka
<br>I would always enjoy helping others.
<br>
<br>mi no mu'ei lo du'u do mi slabu cu na djica lo nu mi do speni
<br>In no world in which I know you would I not want to marry you.
<br>
<br>
<br>Hope this helps.
<br>
<br>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
<br>
<br>--=20
<br>do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
<br>ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
<br>gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
<br>
<br>
<br>.
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
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