Received: from mail-da0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:63208)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBCD6T3EC2UIBBWUE4KBQKGQEFLJLANY@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TMmAq-0000sX-Pw; Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:45 -0700
Received: by mail-da0-f61.google.com with SMTP id k18sf2563332dae.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=89W1EIcRV2GSa+57UtOB4RUyEulvH24Nx0ODFnza4tE=;
        b=Yep6p+sLvbL1qdLcH2pgiG3/kqdzePWDG3cH+nlIrvk83DShhrnltC6bAe/DouJ3jT
         /udiuVyUaGay/6TkSdys6OJrIL+kEmfok/KIO+opB/Y9leD/PbLdlCBwFnQ04Mv0jvcN
         pLrHeN5DnPlAIVCiwUKAfFEW2i9r0rrHo90ZRBEveVZ41y3qA6T0Kd9uL5u0JLdtChxz
         haSyCFP34rknytYpG7X7XCX/Khi/SQF/1MJKMQn93C0J/A+nE9eCd6w7QllZJQLCp6sI
         LSMmyxzdQcI1HoHTJz1ATIJj/Y9GqFCT2XdH3ePSyJWaRlpmVDV7ICtp2Kuwimv7zn4p
         APdA==
Received: by 10.68.216.132 with SMTP id oq4mr1482021pbc.8.1350074970638;
        Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.223.67 with SMTP id qs3ls11693903pbc.8.gmail; Fri, 12 Oct
 2012 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.242.68 with SMTP id wo4mr1496354pbc.1.1350074970065;
        Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.242.68 with SMTP id wo4mr1496353pbc.1.1350074970055;
        Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g4si2231007pax.1.2012.10.12.13.49.30
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.44;
Received: by mail-pb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id ro8so3252699pbb.31
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.68.209.136 with SMTP id mm8mr16491886pbc.146.1350074969769;
 Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.136.162 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:49:29 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <afaafe5f-8881-4c6e-a1b7-2dc490000b69@googlegroups.com>
References: <afaafe5f-8881-4c6e-a1b7-2dc490000b69@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:49:29 -0300
Message-ID: <CALMa68pGaW7_tmwi7SwM3M5RmjhmJw0pt1br2W6aDNJHk8mLag@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Place structure vs. grammatical morphemes
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted
 sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /
Content-Length: 3340

The grammatical morphemes you talk about mark thematic roles.

There is no simple unanimous way of assigning thematic roles to sumti.
If you want a small set of them, you need a lot of metaphor to fit them
to different argument places. Different languages make different choices,
which new speakers must learn.

Besides, absence of thematic roles gives us freedom to define brivla for
all kinds of relations without having to fit each sumti in a role such as
"source", "target", "actor", "patient", "direction", "frame of reference",
"instrument", etc.

The closest thing we have in Lojban are "modals", but they are very
specific, and are more used to augment place structures than to
clarify argument roles.
http://dag.github.com/cll/9/5/
http://dag.github.com/cll/9/6/

(meta: This is a recurrent theme among beginners, someone should write
a page in the wiki about it.)

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

On 12 October 2012 14:16, mashers <mail@mashley.net> wrote:
> coi ro do! I'm a newbie to Lojban and am just learning the basics of the =
grammar. The regular structure of the language really appeals to me, but I =
have one question. Please could somebody explain to me the advantage of pla=
ce structure compared to grammatical morphemes which exist in other languag=
es? Take the example of 'klama'. In order to understand {mi klama le zdani =
le panka}, I have to know that x1 of klama is the person travelling, x2 is =
the destination and x3 is the source. This means, as a learner, that I have=
 to learn not only that 'llama' expresses the concept I label in English us=
ing 'come', 'go' or 'travel', I also have to learn the place structure. Thi=
s is five additional pieces of information (in the case of klama). Another =
learner, who may also have an infirm grasp of Lojban vocabulary, may mistak=
e the place structure of the brivla. They might think x2 is the source and =
x3 is the destination, meaning they misunderstand the communication.
>
> So my question is, why is it better to have place structure files by sumt=
i (and assume that listeners know the place structure for the brivlas you a=
re using) than it is to just use grammatical morphemes? In this example, th=
e English prepositions 'to' and 'from' tell the listener unambiguously that=
 the following noun [phrase] represents the destination and source of the j=
ourney respectively.
>
> Although this does not dampen my enthusiasm for Lojban, I would be intere=
sted to hear others' thoughts on this.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/=
lojban-beginners/-/IZpZYa9O-GAJ.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscrib=
e@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb=
an-beginners?hl=3Den.
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.