Received: from mail-pb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]:47216) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TMwhe-00044T-Jo; Sat, 13 Oct 2012 01:04:14 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f61.google.com with SMTP id rp8sf2953812pbb.16 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2012 01:04:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=bOj+VLIdHEahT4DXAUA2urgKndkNFvYi6hbIuL3k+ps=; b=unOmasci23h3uylksMYBJc9XVzTvG4EgqXKXdcvAFE/gG3A6lKSO0EI+4W3cAZE8mq /6L0tf0cEZ5aR/zFhI4JO3R+nVWV8tQwUBMLQXgKE5PxosYXLDl8bBs+xxeqiFiEYHuA bGEPjrGpHNTi1Rg97mhNbA4RaYbAj7SXtl5IkThDrQadIa2rZsP5eEAOnJKKmEoySJ9s A5Q82NDhkLbsa92jnw8M7xUDvXwSnFJKkmE4oJF/jTwjswIVDTIRSGyEy8L7CkCuEwqB N8QlF6pTarq/wRXGwYbuAmoUEGX0CQTgpQrSC6J6wT+60OGp2MJ3A4pjjR+hx5I16zDU k1/w== Received: by 10.236.149.66 with SMTP id w42mr964190yhj.18.1350115443939; Sat, 13 Oct 2012 01:04:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.236.198.39 with SMTP id u27ls5689473yhn.6.gmail; Sat, 13 Oct 2012 01:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.91.99 with SMTP id g63mr983160yhf.4.1350115443509; Sat, 13 Oct 2012 01:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 01:04:02 -0700 (PDT) From: gleki To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <9dcdebaf-2e65-44c4-9652-7e9b7f094589@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3dce2eae-f93d-4ce4-8965-3d6b61a7f7bf@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] I think I can use "kau" to express Japanese "ga" and "wa" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3619_5132303.1350115442680" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 10540 ------=_Part_3619_5132303.1350115442680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 In the parallel thread I completely forgot to explain why I thought {kau} could be used for focus of any sentence. Look at the following example: [.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu] .i la .djan. kau zekri prenu Now imagine that we omit the sentences in brackets and let the context decide what's going on here. Even then it's pretty simple to reconstruct first three sentences if only the last one is given. But it just means that every time you use {kau} without any questions (even indirect questions), even then it doesn't mean that those questions are absent. They still EXIST. They are just omitted by the speaker but can be easily resurrected from the sentences that are actually said. Really it would be very verbous to say *.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu.....................* It's just not worth it. However, I doubt a bit that it is {kau}, not any other UI-cmavo that can serve this purpose. Do we have a generalised UI-cmavo like we have {su'u} as a generalised NU-cmavo? {ge'e} speaks about emotions so it won't work. Next, {paunai} is defined as a rhetorical question. I don't know exactly what "rhetorical" means. For me this glossword includes some emotions. But if {paunai} is just the opposite of {pau} and {pau} is just a question marker then for me {paunai=kau}. On Friday, October 12, 2012 10:07:13 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote: > > On 12 October 2012 02:10, .iocikun.juj. > > wrote: > > > > I want to use {kau} outside {du'u}. > > It's good that I can say following. > > > > la djan. kau klama > > (You know that someone goes. I inform you that it's John who goes) > > > > If {kau} is to be accepted as a focus marker inside {du'u}, it is only > logical > that it is equally accepted in main bridi, yes. > > > And I can do ordering more strictly. > > > > {mi viska da gi'e da prami ko} is "Please show me the person who loves > you" > > or "Please be loved by the person who I see". > > And {mi viska kau da gi'e da prami ko} is "Please show me the person who > > loves you". > > [I don't see X and X loves you, I see X and X loves you ... ] -> [I see > X > > and X loves you] > > And {mi viska da gi'e da prami kau ko} is "Please be loved by the person > who > > I see". > > [I see X and X don't loves you, I see X and X loves you ...] -> [I see X > and > > X loves you] > > > > I think I understand where you are trying to get here, but I guess focus > is not the appropriate solution. > > Focus is useful in imperatives just as in an other construction: > {ko ba'e jgari ta} / {ko jgari kau ta} -> "HOLD that" (Don't only touch > it) > {ko jgari ba'e ta} / ko jgari ta kau} -> "Hold THAT" (Not something else) > > I guess your sentence > > {mi viska da gi'e da prami ko} is "Please show me the person who loves > you" > may be corrected as > {mi viska da .ije da prami ko} > rewritten as > {mi viska da poi [ke'a] prami ko} > or > {ko se prami da poi mi viska [ke'a]} > > You correctly understand that, as it is, this request doesn't specify any > entity I am seeing that I want you to be loved by, or any entity that > loves > you that I want you to show me. In fact, there may be neither, and you > may need to cure my blindness as well as gain the love of someone to > show me. > > However, this is not a question of lack of focus, it is just a lack of > description: > {ko se prami lo se viska be mi} > "Be loved by the one I see." > vs. > {ko vi'argau mi lo prami be do} > "Show me the lover of yours" > > > > And the idea is essential to languages, isn't it? > > > > I am no typologist, but I don't know of any language without focus. > > On a theoretical level, we expect other's expressions to convey relevant > information, but sometimes, it is grammatically impossible to convey the > relevant information without putting in some more irrelevant facts, just > to build a grammatical phrase. Focus is then the way we can single out > the relevant among the by-products. > > mu'o > mi'e .asiz. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/pT2sVDvhDCUJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_3619_5132303.1350115442680 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the parallel thread I completely forgot to explain why I thought {ka= u} could be used for focus of any sentence.

Look at the = following example:
[.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u = makau zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu] = .i la .djan. kau zekri prenu


Now im= agine that we omit the sentences in brackets and let the context decide wha= t's going on here.
Even then it's pretty simple to reconstruct fi= rst three sentences if only the last one is given.
But it just me= ans that every time you use {kau} without any questions (even indirect ques= tions), even then it doesn't mean that those questions are absent.

They still EXIST. They are just omitted by the speaker but= can be easily resurrected from the sentences that are actually said.
=
Really it would be very verbous to say 
.i paunai ma= zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u= la .djan. kau zekri prenu.....................

It's just not worth it.


Howev= er, I doubt a bit that it is {kau}, not any other UI-cmavo that can serve t= his purpose.
Do we have a generalised UI-cmavo like we have {su'u= } as a generalised NU-cmavo?
{ge'e} speaks about emotions  s= o it won't work.

Next, {paunai} is defined as a rh= etorical question. I don't know exactly what "rhetorical" means. For me thi= s glossword includes some emotions. But if {paunai} is just the opposite of= {pau} and {pau} is just a question marker then for me {paunai=3Dkau}.

On Friday, October 12, 2012 10:07:13 PM UTC+4, .asiz. = wrote:
On 12 October 2012 02:10= , .iocikun.juj. <yoshiku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I want to use {kau} outside {du'u}.
> It's good that I can say following.
>
> la djan. kau klama
> (You know that someone goes. I inform you that it's John who goes)
>

If {kau} is to be accepted as a focus marker inside {du'u}, it is only = logical
that it is equally accepted in main bridi, yes.

> And I can do ordering more strictly.
>
> {mi viska da gi'e da prami ko} is "Please show me the person who l= oves you"
> or "Please be loved by the person who I see".
> And {mi viska kau da gi'e da prami ko} is "Please show me the pers= on who
> loves you".
> [I don't see X and X loves you, I see X and X loves you ... ] ->= ; [I see X
> and X loves you]
> And {mi viska da gi'e da prami kau ko} is "Please be loved by the = person who
> I see".
> [I see X and X don't loves you, I see X and X loves you ...] ->= [I see X and
> X loves you]
>

I think I understand where you are trying to get here, but I guess focu= s
is not the appropriate solution.

Focus is useful in imperatives just as in an other construction:
{ko ba'e jgari ta} / {ko jgari kau ta} -> "HOLD that" (Don't only to= uch it)
{ko jgari ba'e ta} / ko jgari ta kau} -> "Hold THAT" (Not something = else)

I guess your sentence
> {mi viska da gi'e da prami ko} is "Please show me the person who l= oves you"
may be corrected as
  {mi viska da .ije da prami ko}
rewritten as
  {mi viska da poi [ke'a] prami ko}
or
  {ko se prami da poi mi viska [ke'a]}

You correctly understand that, as it is, this request doesn't specify a= ny
entity I am seeing that I want you to be loved by, or any entity that l= oves
you that I want you to show me. In fact, there may be neither, and you
may need to cure my blindness as well as gain the love of someone to
show me.

However, this is not a question of lack of focus, it is just a lack of
description:
  {ko se prami lo se viska be mi}
  "Be loved by the one I see."
vs.
  {ko vi'argau mi lo prami be do}
  "Show me the lover of yours"


> And the idea is essential to languages, isn't it?
>

I am no typologist, but I don't know of any language without focus.

On a theoretical level, we expect other's expressions to convey relevan= t
information, but sometimes, it is grammatically impossible to convey th= e
relevant information without putting in some more irrelevant facts, jus= t
to build a grammatical phrase. Focus is then the way we can single out
the relevant among the by-products.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

--
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=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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