Received: from mail-oa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.219.61]:35904) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TcBrB-0007zG-58; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:17:05 -0800 Received: by mail-oa0-f61.google.com with SMTP id o6sf6828899oag.16 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=q0gzVCFpstlN3avY9+70F1jE1ZckzWFWl8LujJsgZWY=; b=Kewzm3ii61zWG8auf2ogprUCus7wofFRp3Wd4+E/BtBWQW+hn5/RqTDuj7L7+VPPsM O39ye6plbiQPjCrVtpzCIzK42ldAGnpAANMn0ZtI81NBbwGTHVcAnIUHSutDLrANw0Yl HhV8CaplFlqzgE0SMp4Sf89JhGHoDR9UVVKf2FD0AteT5pxTa0Hk8RnnjGyVv8weP6Mt 2YxJSoObIxRbaJ+vk4S1APVoDyj6TESxB5VFwwdXI91Z/KisEWvR2w4rkFnFm0kWUmBe MqTTd6ycRg9zDiddUOoEtzpO2uWFmw8N9Na2++qN+Zbv8Kk0AXywDDIs7Pzxw5ss/F4+ oURg== Received: by 10.50.91.230 with SMTP id ch6mr1560428igb.9.1353748614682; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:54 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.154.231 with SMTP id vr7ls1021246igb.10.canary; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.131.7 with SMTP id ho7mr4334851icc.5.1353748614203; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.131.7 with SMTP id ho7mr4334849icc.5.1353748614183; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-f181.google.com (mail-ob0-f181.google.com [209.85.214.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ul6si811290igb.2.2012.11.24.01.16.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.181; Received: by mail-ob0-f181.google.com with SMTP id za17so8050174obc.26 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.20.230 with SMTP id q6mr4839743oee.134.1353748613899; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.94.71 with HTTP; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:16:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6e229b6d-a250-401b-b5f3-608a9c43a41a@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 02:16:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtsb2piYW4tYmVnaW5uZXJzXSBbYV0gdnMgW+Zd?= From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c1e83f279004cf3a2918 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Spam_score: 2.4 X-Spam_score_int: 24 X-Spam_bar: ++ X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Sorry, I made a mistake. Lojban long-a is {.ei}, not {.ai}. {.ai} is long-i. On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:04 PM, mudri wrote: > >> I'm wondering whether I'm pronouncing Lojban's 'a' too high, and I can't >> find a comparison of [æ] and [a] anywhere. It was mentioned somewhere else >> that Lojbanising the vowel of "hat" is difficult/obfuscating. However, I >> find it easy to interpret a Lojban 'a' as a plain English 'a' (as in, >> recognising {la .kamryn.} is easy, but {la .nikylys.} isn't). >> >> Note that my English vowels are from Yorkshire, meaning that the 'a' >> sound is probably typical of northern England. >> > > I assume æ is the sound of the "a" in hat, yes? I'm not sure what you mean > by a Plain English 'a'", since an English 'a' has at least three different > pronunciations even without accounting for accents, but these are some > examples of words that- for me at least- have the same sounding as: > > 'a': h*o*t, f*a*ther, c*a*ll, d*a*rk, f*a*r, p*a*ll, Ir*a*n (la.iran., > not "I ran").... > "æ": p*a*t, m*a*th, p*a*l, c*a*p,* *r*a*n.... > "A": m*a*te, p*ai*l, r*ay*, d*a*te.... > > In Lojban, the first and last are zo.a and lu .ai li'u, respectively. The > best way to render æ in Lojban I can think of is lu .ae li'u, but that's > not a legal diphthong. > > Finally, .ybu isn't usually an "a" in English. It's pronounced exactly the > same as "uh", and its sound is usually found as "u" in English words: p*u*tt, > sh*u*t, r*u*dder.... > > It is of course possible that these example words aren't pronounced the > same by both of us, since I speak U.S.E. and you speak B.C.E., but it's my > hope they are. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > [...] Content analysis details: (2.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (eyeonus[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 2.4 HTML_OBFUSCATE_20_30 BODY: Message is 20% to 30% HTML obfuscation 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature Content-Length: 6354 --e89a8ff1c1e83f279004cf3a2918 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I made a mistake. Lojban long-a is {.ei}, not {.ai}. {.ai} is long-i= . On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:04 PM, mudri wrote: > >> I'm wondering whether I'm pronouncing Lojban's 'a' too high, and I can't >> find a comparison of [=E6] and [a] anywhere. It was mentioned somewhere = else >> that Lojbanising the vowel of "hat" is difficult/obfuscating. However, I >> find it easy to interpret a Lojban 'a' as a plain English 'a' (as in, >> recognising {la .kamryn.} is easy, but {la .nikylys.} isn't). >> >> Note that my English vowels are from Yorkshire, meaning that the 'a' >> sound is probably typical of northern England. >> > > I assume =E6 is the sound of the "a" in hat, yes? I'm not sure what you m= ean > by a Plain English 'a'", since an English 'a' has at least three differen= t > pronunciations even without accounting for accents, but these are some > examples of words that- for me at least- have the same sounding as: > > 'a': h*o*t, f*a*ther, c*a*ll, d*a*rk, f*a*r, p*a*ll, Ir*a*n (la.iran., > not "I ran").... > "=E6": p*a*t, m*a*th, p*a*l, c*a*p,* *r*a*n.... > "A": m*a*te, p*ai*l, r*ay*, d*a*te.... > > In Lojban, the first and last are zo.a and lu .ai li'u, respectively. The > best way to render =E6 in Lojban I can think of is lu .ae li'u, but that'= s > not a legal diphthong. > > Finally, .ybu isn't usually an "a" in English. It's pronounced exactly th= e > same as "uh", and its sound is usually found as "u" in English words: p*u= *tt, > sh*u*t, r*u*dder.... > > It is of course possible that these example words aren't pronounced the > same by both of us, since I speak U.S.E. and you speak B.C.E., but it's m= y > hope they are. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --e89a8ff1c1e83f279004cf3a2918 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I made a mistake. Lojban long-a is {.ei}, not {.ai}. {.ai} is long-i= .

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Jonath= an Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:= 04 PM, mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm wondering whether I'm pronouncing Lojban's 'a' too = high, and I can't find a comparison of [=E6] and [a] anywhere. It was m= entioned somewhere else that Lojbanising the vowel of "hat" is di= fficult/obfuscating. However, I find it easy to interpret a Lojban 'a&#= 39; as a plain English 'a' (as in, recognising {la .kamryn.} is eas= y, but {la .nikylys.} isn't).

Note that my English vowels are from Yorkshire, meaning that= the 'a' sound is probably typical of northern England.

I assume =E6 is the sound of the &qu= ot;a" in hat, yes? I'm not sure what you mean by a Plain English &= #39;a'", since an English 'a' has at least three different= pronunciations even without accounting for accents, but these are some exa= mples of words that- for me at least- have the same sounding as:

'a':=A0hot, father, call, = dark, far, pall, Iran (la.iran., not "I ra= n")....
"=E6": pat, math, pal= , cap,=A0ran....
"A": mate, pail, ray, date....

In Lojban, the first and last are zo.a and lu .ai l= i'u, respectively. The best way to render =E6 in Lojban I can think of = is lu .ae li'u, but that's not a legal diphthong.

Finally, .ybu isn't usually an "a" in Eng= lish. It's pronounced exactly the same as "uh", and its sound= is usually found as "u" in English words: putt, shut, rudder....

It is of course possible that these example words aren&= #39;t pronounced the same by both of us, since I speak U.S.E. and you speak= B.C.E., but it's my hope they are.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&= #39;o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )




-- mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denp= a bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am = your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--e89a8ff1c1e83f279004cf3a2918--