Received: from mail-yh0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:57387) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TUcqT-0005sr-Na; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 05:29:06 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f61.google.com with SMTP id o21sf2978145yho.16 for ; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 05:28:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XHNQC+fwauEquJ0IMpqQa+aEKUusKCyk+UNTZ3B8URo=; b=HcMvRP/DsKufA/atqrAhQF4Mjs7+ZvDMKup8ld2NHdHFGOSodbKi96QraVv6zFXeO2 vFNObdH4M6vG5mfmCb/5wn5cR76cqp/6TbhJUMxOpB0+89zfRLRYLRhfOqt93DQjOqC7 g8sBNUOU8lqkfmiwKl63piML1rcURpiPYhMbtDW/ylr5OjtY5hBb/LNSTmnYdryhgVZM iYe2/V+gsR7OaDyWw2r2zwRniuhmcT0RAkiqubkyi2l3NtqynDuSHsNrYtiUWgoT2NrO R41ygzA50juUBjxFqlgQcLQRyLLnW0sij20ISQBEUAmePMbAo6CQ9s65m3oqe1hWQ8oc dQLA== Received: by 10.236.180.134 with SMTP id j6mr333811yhm.15.1351945734790; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.236.142.209 with SMTP id i57ls6292979yhj.2.gmail; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.149.66 with SMTP id w42mr343151yhj.18.1351945734323; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 05:28:53 -0700 (PDT) From: mudri To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <98213070-04e1-44b2-81f9-af7d287b66df@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <80e59291-ef2d-4309-96cc-6e34f13f962e@googlegroups.com> <53bb5415-316d-4224-a430-eb509a9b13cc@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {ja'e} vs {seri'a}, {semu'i} &c. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: jammyatjammy@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_207_29509859.1351945733705" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 11682 ------=_Part_207_29509859.1351945733705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I understand what you were saying now. It was not contradictory - I'll give you those points - but your example made {ja'e} sound distinct from each of {semu'i}, {seri'a}, {seki'u} and {seni'i}. So, to finish this off, which of the previous 4 clusters could you substitute in for the {ja'e} in your sentence? On Saturday, 3 November 2012 12:10:54 UTC, aionys wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 4:43 AM, mudri >wrote: > >> Your first answer gave no new information? By the title of the thread, I >> implied that I knew that {ja'e} matched up to {seri'a}, {semu'i} and others. >> > > Still not contradictory to the other post. > > Regardless, {ja'e} is not a because. {seja'e} is, but that's not what you > were asking. And the reason to use {seja'e} vs. anything else is for the > same reason to use nu vs. anything else- it's general. Use the others if > you want to be more specific, use {seja'e} if you don't. > > >> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 10:30:52 UTC, aionys wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 3:41 AM, mudri wrote: >>> >>>> These two replies are contradictory, though I'm more convinced by the >>>> second. >>> >>> >>> No they aren't. His example is using {se ja'e}, whereas mine uses {ja'e}. >>> >>> seja'e = "... results >>> because of ..." >>> >>> ja'e = "... resulting in >>> ..." >>> >>> What comes before {se ja'e} is a result of what comes after {se ja'e}. >>> What comes before {ja'e} results in what comes after {ja'e}. >>> >>> >>>> So which more specific "therefore" would be used in the first answer's >>>> example? >>>> >>>> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 07:16:16 UTC, tijlan wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2 November 2012 17:34, mudri wrote: >>>>> > Can someone explain {ja'e} to me, and why I shouldn't use one of the >>>>> "because" modals in its place? >>>>> >>>>> {ja'e} comes from {jalge}, which says that x1 is an outcome of x2, >>>>> without specifying the nature of "because". {ja'e ___} refers to the >>>>> consequence; use {se ja'e ___} for the antecedent. >>>>> >>>>> {ri'a}, {mu'i}, {ki'u}, {ni'i} ... are more specific. Also their x1 & >>>>> x2 are the inverse of {ja'e}'s; it's {ri'a ___}, not {se ri'a ___}, >>>>> that refers to the antecedent. >>>>> >>>>> You can replace {se ja'e} with a more specific modal: >>>>> >>>>> lo bloti cu spofu se ja'e lo nu janli >>>>> The ship is broken, from (as a result of) the collision. >>>>> >>>>> lo bloti cu spofu ri'a lo nu janli >>>>> The ship is broken, physically from (as a physical effect of) the >>>>> collision. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mu'o >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/** >>>> msg/lojban-beginners/-/R0l_**p5vxoSAJ >>>> . >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.**com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@** >>>> googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>> group/lojban-beginners?hl=en >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/O95p52gJ1j8J. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/d9e9hLchhnYJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_207_29509859.1351945733705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I understand what you were saying now. It was not contradictory - I'll give= you those points - but your example made {ja'e} sound distinct from each o= f {semu'i}, {seri'a}, {seki'u} and {seni'i}. So, to finish this off, w= hich of the previous 4 clusters could you substitute in for the {ja'e} in y= our sentence?

On Saturday, 3 November 2012 12:10:54 UTC, aionys wr= ote:
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 4:43 AM, mudri <jammya..= .@gmail.com> wrote:
Your first answer gave no new information? By the title of the thread, I im= plied that I knew that {ja'e} matched up to {seri'a}, {semu'i} and others.<= br>

Still not contradictory to the other post.

Regardless, {ja'e} is not a because. {seja'e} is, but that's not what y= ou were asking. And the reason to use {seja'e} vs. anything else is for the= same reason to use nu vs. anything else- it's general. Use the others if y= ou want to be more specific, use {seja'e} if you don't.
 
On Saturday, 3 November 2012 10:= 30:52 UTC, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 3:41 AM, mudri = <jammya...@gmail.com> wrote:
These two replies are contradictory, though I'm more convinced by the secon= d.

No they aren't. His example is using {se ja'e}, whe= reas mine uses {ja'e}.

seja'e =3D "... results because of ..."
ja'e =3D "... resulting in ..."

What comes before {se ja'e} is= a result of what comes after {se ja'e}. What comes before {ja'e} results i= n what comes after {ja'e}.
 
So which m= ore specific "therefore" would be used in the first answer's example?

On Saturday, 3 November 2012 07:16:16 UTC, tijlan wrote:
On 2 November 2012 17:34, mudri <= ;jammya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can someone explain {ja'e} to me, and why I shouldn't use one of t= he "because" modals in its place?

{ja'e} comes from {jalge}, which says that x1 is an outcome of x2,
without specifying the nature of "because". {ja'e ___} refers to the
consequence; use {se ja'e ___} for the antecedent.

{ri'a}, {mu'i}, {ki'u}, {ni'i} ... are more specific. Also their x1 &am= p;
x2 are the inverse of {ja'e}'s; it's {ri'a ___}, not {se ri'a ___},
that refers to the antecedent.

You can replace {se ja'e} with a more specific modal:

  lo bloti cu spofu se ja'e lo nu janli
  The ship is broken, from (as a result of) the collision.

  lo bloti cu spofu ri'a lo nu janli
  The ship is broken, physically from (as a physical effect of) th= e collision.


mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.= google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/R0l_p5vxoSAJ.



--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.lu= k. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.co= m.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/<= wbr>group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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