Received: from mail-ie0-f189.google.com ([209.85.223.189]:59278) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TcPNM-0004wL-T4; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:16 -0800 Received: by mail-ie0-f189.google.com with SMTP id 17sf1311844iea.16 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=c62U6Ei/XFNAgwCIzg4mIEXYguOroz8F0Z0tY+uGUE8=; b=f5eiqpHuvpkEjJxAyWTJe3lii+ZXJESa+CgyJ/qVbfnPv+W3dQ4Do1BxVmV3TVhN20 Bb/70b8LW9Sx4YzsgkgoR94+g1MIulu60DZSKl7B3Gh8cAu/LVkwr6W5XyO0RIW1+2Ez hkKwaKQltsJRDMO6CjGMoszUwDz62LQUH879tPSl4wUsUud1dWTV+fKli6uhUcgZwvbd YCJlQoBVE3vgHfIBbVCUPXCYrj3mTUVAkuBWGXYKca+oCfKgYRiy3RMOusVU6g6U4vQ7 GpaqRJiemOeVfb6w+p/zTLR+JxaWXL0tjKtSYgEUNB7dQEDaJErYBtVcs/MJ1zvOEPvb gu/g== Received: by 10.50.37.232 with SMTP id b8mr3579758igk.4.1353800582493; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:02 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.17.201 with SMTP id q9ls2040953igd.26.canary; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.85.4 with SMTP id o4mr5371032icl.27.1353800581811; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.85.4 with SMTP id o4mr5371031icl.27.1353800581789; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-f172.google.com (mail-ia0-f172.google.com [209.85.210.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id uk11si989293igb.2.2012.11.24.15.43.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.172; Received: by mail-ia0-f172.google.com with SMTP id j26so9389882iaf.17 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.77.166 with SMTP id t6mr7327151igw.72.1353800581661; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.194.193 with HTTP; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3AD9ACF2-9875-4BC8-86C1-65D29ADB8226@asb.gaggle.net> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 00:43:01 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Possessives From: Remo Dentato To: lojban-beginners X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3baff7c4437504cf46423a X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 15646 --e89a8f3baff7c4437504cf46423a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 There are even more than ten. The point is that our pronouns we use are highly ambigous. If I say: "Sam met Mark. He was sad" who is the sad one? You can't tell. In Lojban you can assign a pro-sumti to make this explicit: if Sam was the sad one: { la .sem. goi ko'a penmi la .mark. .i ko'a badri } if Mark was the sad one: { la .sem. penmi la .mark. goi ko'a .i ko'a badri } Once assigned, {ko'a} will always have the same referent unless it is reassigned. But you can also simply use the first letter of the sumti as a pro-sumti: { la .sam. penmi la .mark. i sy. badri } { la .sam. penmi la .mark. i my. badri } The rule here is that a letter refers with the last sumti that started with that letter. You can also assign letters, in which case they retain their referent throughout the text. If you say: { la .sam. goi sy. penmi la .mark. } the letter {sy} will always refer to Sam in the following text. It is subject to discussion whether using an unassigned pro-sumti is to be considered "good Lojban" or not. If you structure your Lojban sentences carefully, you'll see that you won't need the third person much. For example: { la .sam. poi badri cu penmi la .mark. } On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Annie wrote: > How can there possibly be ten thirdcomperson prosumti? Do they all mean > he, she, it, or they, or is there some hidden meanings I didn't know about? > What are the actual words?a > > Sent from my iPod > > On Nov 24, 2012, at 4:34 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:08 PM, ianek wrote: > >> Unless I'm wrong, {lo mi kumfa} and {lo kumfa pe mi} have exactly the >> same meaning. >> > > They do. {lo mi kumfa} is literally just shorthand for {lo kumfa pe mi}. > > >> There are also other ways, but those listed by remod are the most >> important. >> And, you misspelled "sumti" as "su,ti". No need to confuse Annie more >> than necessary (zo'o) >> Capital V in {ko'V} and {fo'V} means any vowel of a, e, i, o, u >> (there's a total of ten third person pro-sumti, not counting >> letterals). >> >> mu'o mi'e ianek >> >> On 24 Lis, 22:36, Remo Dentato wrote: >> > For possessive you have many option. >> > >> > 1. using {pe} to indicate an association: "my room (where I sleep)" -> >> { lo >> > kumfa pe mi } >> > 2. using {po} to indicate possession: "my room (that I own)" -> { lo >> kumfa >> > po mi } >> > 3. using one of the personal pro-sumti: "my room (in an unspecified >> sense" >> > -> { lo mi kunfa } >> > 4. using the dedicated su,ti place like in "my father" -> { lo patfu be >> mi } >> > >> > The role of pronouns is played, in Lojban, by the pro-sumti. Note that >> > they are not exactly the same! It's better not to try to translate >> English >> > concepts directly into Lojban. It's much better to understand how things >> > work in Lojban and then try to use them to express what you want to say. >> > >> > If you're just asking for personal pronouns the first and second >> person is >> > covered by: >> > >> > {mi} -> me (the speaker) >> > {do} -> you (the listener) >> > {ko} -> you (imperative) >> > {do'o} -> you and others but not me >> > {mi'o} -> you and me but not others >> > {ma'a} -> me, you and others >> > {mi'a} -> me and others but not you >> > >> > For third person one uses the assignable pro-sumti {ko'V} and {fo'V} or >> a >> > the first letter of the sumti you want to refer to. >> > >> > I saw a dog. it was running -> {mi viska lo gerku goi ko'a .i ko'a >> bajra} >> > I saw a dog. it was running -> {mi viska lo gerku .i gy. bajra} >> > >> > co'o mu'o mi'e la remod >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Annie >> wrote: >> > > How do you make a word possessive in Lojban? Also, what are the >> pronouns >> > > in Lojban? >> > >> > > Sent from my iPod >> > >> > > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. >> > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > "Lojban Beginners" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > > > > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --e89a8f3baff7c4437504cf46423a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are even more than ten. The point is that our pronouns we use are hig= hly ambigous.

If I say: "Sam met Mark. He was sad" who is= the sad one? You can't tell.

In Lojban you can assign a pro-sum= ti to make this explicit:

if Sam was the sad one: { la .sem. goi ko'a penmi la .mark. .i ko&#= 39;a badri }
if Mark was the sad one: { la .sem. penmi la .mark. goi ko= 'a .i ko'a badri }

Once assigned, {ko'a} will always ha= ve the same referent unless it is reassigned.

But you can also simply use the first letter of the sumti as a pro-sumt= i:

{ la .sam. penmi la .mark. i sy. badri }
{ la .sam. penmi la = .mark. i my. badri }

The rule here is that a letter refers with the= last sumti that started with that letter.

You can also assign letters, in which case they retain their referent t= hroughout the text. If you say:

{ la .sam. goi sy. penmi la .mark. }=

the letter {sy} will always refer to Sam in the following text.
It is subject to discussion whether using an unassigned pro-sumti is to= be considered "good Lojban" or not.

If you structure you= r Lojban sentences carefully, you'll see that you won't need the th= ird person much.

For example:=A0
{ la .sam. poi badri cu penmi la .mark. }




On Sat,= Nov 24, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.net>= ; wrote:
How can there possibl= y be ten thirdcomperson prosumti? Do they all mean he, she, it, or they, or= is there some hidden meanings I didn't know about? What are the actual= words?a

Sent from my iPod

On Nov 24, 2012,= at 4:34 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:08 PM, ianek <ja= nek37@gmail.com> wrote:
Unless I'm wrong, {lo mi kumfa} and {lo kumfa pe mi} have exactly the same meaning.

They do. {lo mi kumfa} is literally = just shorthand for {lo kumfa pe mi}.
=A0
There are also other ways, but those listed by remod are the most
important.
And, you misspelled "sumti" as "su,ti". No need to conf= use Annie more
than necessary (zo'o)
Capital V in {ko'V} and {fo'V} means any vowel of a, e, i, o, u
(there's a total of ten third person pro-sumti, not counting
letterals).

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 24 Lis, 22:36, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For possessive you have many option.
>
> 1. using {pe} to indicate an association: "my room (where I sleep= )" -> { lo
> kumfa pe mi }
> 2. using {po} to indicate possession: "my room (that I own)"= -> =A0{ lo kumfa
> po mi }
> 3. using one of the personal pro-sumti: "my room (in an unspecifi= ed sense"
> -> { lo mi kunfa }
> 4. using the dedicated su,ti place like in "my father" ->= { lo patfu be mi }
>
> =A0The role of pronouns is played, in Lojban, by the pro-sumti. Note t= hat
> they are not exactly the same! It's better not to try to translate= English
> concepts directly into Lojban. It's much better to understand how = things
> work in Lojban and then try to use them to express what you want to sa= y.
>
> =A0If you're just asking for personal pronouns the first and secon= d person is
> covered by:
>
> =A0{mi} -> me (the speaker)
> =A0{do} -> you =A0(the listener)
> =A0{ko} -> you (imperative)
> =A0{do'o} -> you and others but not me
> =A0{mi'o} -> you and me but not others
> =A0{ma'a} -> me, you and others
> =A0{mi'a} -> me and others but not you
>
> For third person one uses the assignable pro-sumti {ko'V} and {fo&= #39;V} or a
> the first letter of the sumti you want to refer to.
>
> I saw a dog. it was running -> {mi viska lo gerku goi ko'a .i k= o'a bajra}
> I saw a dog. it was running -> {mi viska lo gerku .i gy. bajra}
>
> co'o mu'o mi'e la remod
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Annie <park.an...@asb.g= aggle.net> wrote:
> > How do you make a word possessive in Lojban? Also, what are the p= ronouns
> > in Lojban?
>
> > Sent from my iPod
>
> > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsu= bscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.





*** This Email was sent by a student at School for th= e Blind.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
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--e89a8f3baff7c4437504cf46423a--