Received: from mail-gh0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:54810) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TcQcf-0005Yb-9l; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:03:09 -0800 Received: by mail-gh0-f189.google.com with SMTP id f16sf2518414ghb.16 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=kljA0UxjtYmR5Y43BlT30mSIrcgVJvrUR1sEdnmwPsw=; b=q4SH2DimFjGf0akB+eQIddmvJ7TRVU/F91ga91SIyjJKixtNpHcHD+KyYqDP0JAOtR uz4sapeK9UCzRwNc1nB/2dHcgyE1cuoQUsm2Ch/rH6DJwHtMJu2gf46HmiGWKnLOvHnX yTWLaS0OhZFoVt1HW/Dl5z1SXb5rCJ3EB+P8/Gj0YDfMdRfoJTg5aEHYw/Ta/pIzk5n2 pNdMGS97+GRBhPqWK2cGBWEDFSrCnGHDq5DrAAsx4eTOwvrtifMgbMS5hskpZdxGpIQM DPYg9eiNHxzLt0SNOz7oQPqK//S2kVEAwrfCYdfpWHQ7kHLPbWZDu3BauSLKwT9LxIZz qM4Q== Received: by 10.50.106.225 with SMTP id gx1mr4496762igb.8.1353805374300; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:54 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.140.37 with SMTP id rd5ls1699602igb.2.gmail; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.237.73 with SMTP id va9mr8503457igc.4.1353805373863; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.237.73 with SMTP id va9mr8503456igc.4.1353805373839; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-f42.google.com (mail-oa0-f42.google.com [209.85.219.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5si1005975iga.1.2012.11.24.17.02.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.42; Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id j1so21066312oag.1 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.20.230 with SMTP id q6mr6196962oee.134.1353805373501; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.94.71 with HTTP; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1659896d-069a-4d77-8f1e-847cc5a76e7f@googlegroups.com> References: <67d99907-4a24-4a62-8375-ca38bca9d13f@googlegroups.com> <6d0543ad-85f1-4bf1-a2d2-1dd6ce37e8c3@n8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <1410965.0A3Eqz1JoD@caracal> <43530517-2bea-4234-911c-46532135347a@e25g2000vbm.googlegroups.com> <1659896d-069a-4d77-8f1e-847cc5a76e7f@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 18:02:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ma xe fanva zoi gy Countless stars were twinkling in the sky gy From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c1e861efa504cf4760f3 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 13606 --e89a8ff1c1e861efa504cf4760f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 5:36 PM, mudri wrote: > Still, it's a bit strange that the "Pure-Lojban" definition of {so'a} is > {namcu .i se zilkancu lo muljbi}. Actually, I'm a bit confused as to what > that means: "a near to complete thing is the non-existent counter". And, = as > far as I've learnt, {zi'o} isn't a mere "imaginary" - it effectively says > that the bridi is false (due to denying the existence of one of the thing= s > it was predicated on). .uanai > Firstly, {zilkancu} is {kancu} with the x1 removed: kancu: x1 (agent) counts the number in set x2 to be x3 [number/count] counting [off] by units x4. zilkancu: x1 numbers/adds up to/consists of x2 (number) counting by units x3; x1 are x2 in number. The translation is: {namcu .i se zilkancu lo muljbi} "Number. A result of counting which a nearly-whole numbers." I.e.: "This is a number which is equivalent to counting nearly all of something (whether that be nearly all the stars (mass) or nearly all of a pie (individual))." > On Sunday, 25 November 2012 00:27:11 UTC, aionys wrote: > >> On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2:53 PM, ianek wrote: >> >>> It isn't infinite, but I used {ci'i} as a hyperbole. Maybe {so'iso'i} >>> or something would be good, but it doesn't sound very serious. BTW, >>> {so'e} and {so'a} are defined as 'most' and 'almost all', but it >>> doesn't make much sense since 1. they fit in the {so'V} sequence of >>> imprecise numerals and the other three do not refer to being a part of >>> something, 2. there are compounds {piso'e} and {piso'a} and they mean >>> 'most of' and 'almost all of', which for me is the same. >>> >>> What I mean is: the sequence is decrementing imprecise numerals: >>> {so'a}, {so'e}, {so'i}, {so'o}, {so'u}. But if translated according to >>> definitions in jbovlaste, they don't work like that: "many stars" may >>> mean arbitrarily many stars, while "most stars" would mean that >>> there's some set of stars and we're talking about a majority of them. >>> Completely other thing. And if we want to say that, we might as well >>> use {piso'e}: "most of the stars" and it would mean the same. So, as >>> for me, {so'e} and {so'a}, as defined in jbovlaste, are inconsistent >>> with the rest of this series. >>> >>> I may be, and probably am very wrong about all this, but there goes my >>> rant. I'd like to be able to use {so'e tarci} for 'lots of stars' and >>> {so'a tarci} for 'uncountable stars'. Only that I'm not sure why >>> "decimal point lots" would then mean "most", ie. more than half. Oh >>> well. >>> >> >> It's more that the English definitions of the words are flawed: >> >> ro > so'a > so'e > so'i > so'o > so'u > no >> >> pa > piso'a > piso'e > piso'i >piso'o > piso'i > no >> >> piso'e > pimu > piso'o >> >> Because these numbers are imprecise, it's obviously not possible to give >> specific numeric inequalities to them beyond the above, and even then, >> there may be cases where two or more overlap with each other. >> >> >>> mu'o mi'e ianek >>> >>> On 24 Lis, 22:12, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>> > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:26:33 ianek wrote: >>> > > I'd try to translate it as {ci'i tarci pu carmi bu'u lo tsani}, but= I >>> > > may be very wrong. There's no simple word for twinkle, flicker or >>> > > blink. >>> > >>> > I'd say {kliniota} for "blink", but that probably wouldn't be >>> understood by a >>> > non-French-speaker. A possible word for "twinkle" is {camdesku}. >>> > >>> > The number of stars isn't infinite, it's just too many for humans to >>> count. You >>> > could say {ni'e bacterkancu}, but that's a bit long. >>> > >>> > Pierre >>> > -- >>> > When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. >>> > J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.**com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@** >>> googlegroups.com. >>> >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den >>> . >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/YtB1D7AeI7MJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --e89a8ff1c1e861efa504cf4760f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 5:36 PM, mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
On Sunday, 25 November 2012 00= :27:11 UTC, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2= :53 PM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrot= e:
It isn't infinite, but I used {ci'i} as a hyperbole. Maybe {so'= iso'i}
or something would be good, but it doesn't sound very serious. BTW,
{so'e} and {so'a} are defined as 'most' and 'almost all= ', but it
doesn't make much sense since 1. they fit in the {so'V} sequence of=
imprecise numerals and the other three do not refer to being a part of
something, 2. there are compounds {piso'e} and {piso'a} and they me= an
'most of' and 'almost all of', which for me is the same.
What I mean is: the sequence is decrementing imprecise numerals:
{so'a}, {so'e}, {so'i}, {so'o}, {so'u}. But if translat= ed according to
definitions in jbovlaste, they don't work like that: "many stars&q= uot; may
mean arbitrarily many stars, while "most stars" would mean that there's some set of stars and we're talking about a majority of the= m.
Completely other thing. And if we want to say that, we might as well
use {piso'e}: "most of the stars" and it would mean the same.= So, as
for me, {so'e} and {so'a}, as defined in jbovlaste, are inconsisten= t
with the rest of this series.

I may be, and probably am very wrong about all this, but there goes my
rant. I'd like to be able to use {so'e tarci} for 'lots of star= s' and
{so'a tarci} for 'uncountable stars'. Only that I'm not sur= e why
"decimal point lots" would then mean "most", ie. more t= han half. Oh
well.

It's more that the English definitions o= f the words are flawed:

ro > so'a > so'e > so'i= > so'o > so'u > no

pa > piso'a > piso= 9;e > piso'i >piso'o > piso'i > no

piso'e > pimu > piso'o

Because these numbers are i= mprecise, it's obviously not possible to give specific numeric inequali= ties to them beyond the above, and even then, there may be cases where two = or more overlap with each other.
=A0
mu'o mi'e ianek

On 24 Lis, 22:12, Pierre= Abbat <p...@bezitopo.org> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:26:33 ianek wrote:
> > I'd try to translate it as {ci'i tarci pu carmi bu'u = lo tsani}, but I
> > may be very wrong. There's no simple word for twinkle, flicke= r or
> > blink.
>
> I'd say {kliniota} for "blink", but that probably wouldn= 't be understood by a
> non-French-speaker. A possible word for "twinkle" is {camdes= ku}.
>
> The number of stars isn't infinite, it's just too many for hum= ans to count. You
> could say {ni'e bacterkancu}, but that's a bit long.
>
> Pierre
> --
> When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
> J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com= .
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@g= ooglegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/<= u>group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pi= lno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! = Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.= google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/YtB1D7AeI7MJ.
=

=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--e89a8ff1c1e861efa504cf4760f3--