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From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: {ko} and {do} with .a-/.e- attitudinals
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Le samedi 17 novembre 2012 09:23:29 UTC+9, mudri a =E9crit :
> Should {ko} be used in sentences marked with {.e'o}? It's something I see=
=20
often (and usually do myself), but {do} is generally used with {.e'u} in=20
particular. My thought was that, because attitudinals beginning with "a"=20
and "e" (and some "i") show that the marked text is a hypothetical=20
assertion, not a real one, using {do} would be the correct thing for the=20
hypothetical world (in which la'e {do} is actually doing what is said in=20
the sentence). .iepei



{do} may be a hypothetical one as well as a real one, depending on the=20
context. For example,
ganai do da'i morsi ginai mi jbena=20
The whole sentence may be true even if {do na morsi}.

{ko} and {do} are defined as follows:
ko sumka'i le tersku noi le cusku cu minde ja cpedu le nu ke'a gasnu la'e=
=20
le selsku
do sumka'i le tersku

The difference is only the part after {noi}, which adds the speaker's=20
attitude of {minde ja cpedu}.

"{ko} with {.e'o}" means therefore "{do} with the speaker's attitudes=20
{minde ja cpedu} and {.e'o}". Because {.e'o} is an attitudinal of {cpedu},=
=20
it means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {minde ja cpedu je cpedu}",=
=20
which is equal to "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {cpedu}".
"{do} with {.e'o}" also means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of=20
{cpedu}".=20
"{ko} with {.e'o}" and "{do} with {.e'o}" have therefore the same meaning.

{.e'u} is an attitudinal of {stidi}. "{ko} with {.e'u}" means, with the=20
same procedure, "{do} with the speaker's attitudes of {minde ja cpedu je=20
stidi}". On the other hand, "{do} with {.e'u}" means only "{do} with the=20
speaker's attitude of {stidi}", which is clearly different from the meaning=
=20
of "{ko} with {.e'u}". Both are acceptable, and the speaker needs to select=
=20
one of them depending on one's attitude.

In my opinion, however, the definition of {ko} should include also the=20
attitudes of {curmi}, {pacna}, {stidi}, {djica}, {bilga}, because=20
imperative expressions in natural languages include them. If so, "{ko} with=
=20
{.e'u}" and "{do} with {.e'u}" would have the same meaning.

--=20
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo=
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<br>Le samedi 17 novembre 2012 09:23:29 UTC+9, mudri a =E9crit :<br>&gt; Sh=
ould {ko} be used in sentences marked with {.e'o}? It's something I see oft=
en (and usually do myself), but {do} is generally used with {.e'u} in parti=
cular. My thought was that, because attitudinals beginning with "a" and "e"=
 (and some "i") show that the marked text is a hypothetical assertion, not =
a real one, using {do} would be the correct thing for the hypothetical worl=
d (in which la'e {do} is actually doing what is said in the sentence). .iep=
ei<br><br><br><br>{do} may be a hypothetical one as well as a real one, dep=
ending on the context. For example,<br>ganai do da'i morsi ginai mi jbena <=
br>The whole sentence may be true even if {do na morsi}.<br><br>{ko} and {d=
o} are defined as follows:<br>ko sumka'i le tersku noi le cusku cu minde ja=
 cpedu le nu ke'a gasnu la'e le selsku<br>do sumka'i le tersku<br><br>The d=
ifference is only the part after {noi}, which adds the speaker's attitude o=
f {minde ja cpedu}.<br><br>"{ko} with {.e'o}" means therefore "{do} with th=
e speaker's attitudes {minde ja cpedu} and {.e'o}". Because {.e'o} is an at=
titudinal of {cpedu}, it means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {minde =
ja cpedu je cpedu}", which is equal to "{do} with the speaker's attitude of=
 {cpedu}".<br>"{do} with {.e'o}" also means "{do} with the speaker's attitu=
de of {cpedu}". <br>"{ko} with {.e'o}" and "{do} with {.e'o}" have therefor=
e the same meaning.<br><br>{.e'u} is an attitudinal of {stidi}. "{ko} with =
{.e'u}" means, with the same procedure, "{do} with the speaker's attitudes =
of {minde ja cpedu je stidi}". On the other hand, "{do} with {.e'u}" means =
only "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {stidi}", which is clearly differ=
ent from the meaning of "{ko} with {.e'u}". Both are acceptable, and the sp=
eaker needs to select one of them depending on one's attitude.<br><br>In my=
 opinion, however, the definition of {ko} should include also the attitudes=
 of {curmi}, {pacna}, {stidi}, {djica}, {bilga}, because imperative express=
ions in natural languages include them. If so, "{ko} with {.e'u}" and "{do}=
 with {.e'u}" would have the same meaning.<br><div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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om/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/PfxqF8GG81cJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l=
ojban-beginners/-/PfxqF8GG81cJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
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