On Monday, Decemb= er 3, 2012 5:53:51 PM UTC+4, Michael Turniansky wrote:

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Michael Tur= niansky <mturn...@gmail.com> wrote= :

Yes, I believe it would, although I don't kno= w if xorlo affects that. I didn't mean to say it wouldn't. The = second sentence would be one instance of giving (e.g they presented it to h= er together). But the first sentence (to me) would still imply they b= oth gave her a particular ring (since it's only specified once), but they m= ight have given it to her at different times.
--gejyspa

I don't think so, as that places specificity o= n the generic article. {le djine} would most certainly mean they both give = her the same ring, but {lo djine} means "one or more things which actually = are a ring or torus". If John gives her a donut, and Jim gives her an inner= tube, then the statement {la .djan. e la .djim. dunda lo djine la .meris.}= is still true.

I don't know if either = part of that is true. If we said "la djan dunda lo djine la meris .ij= e la djim dunda lo djine la meris" (which according to the CLL 14.6 is exac= tly equivalent to the original sentence) then we can be talking about diffe= rent rings/sets of rings. The only uncertainity I expressed is whethe= r xorlo changes that equivalence. But using "le" doesn't change that= fact. But if you just meant something about how "lo" can refer to mo= re than one thing, "le" also can. And, if we used "joi" as the connec= tive, one or the other may not have given her anything. But all of th= is was outside the scope of the original quesiton

I won't use {le} as it's definition and usag= e is definitely broken. But I think {lo bi'unai djine} can easily solve the= problem (if there was only one ring mentioned before)

--gejyspa
= ;
=

On Sun, Dec 2, 2= 012 at 10:49 AM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.= com> wrote:

I'm joking far more than I'm serious in sayi= ng this, but considering that {lo djine} is a constant, wouldn't {la .djan.= e la .djim. dunda lo djine la .meris.} mean that they each gave her *the s= ame* ring :P ?

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

On 2 December 2012 10:07, Michael Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Normally, you would = use a connective, like "la djan .e la djim dunda lo djine la meris" (= John and Jim gave a ring to Mary, which would mean they each gave her a rin= g) or "a djan jo'u la djim dunda lo djine la meris" (John along with Jim ga= ve a ring to Mary). In these cases, the x1 is the whole connected giv= e "John and Jim", "John along with Jim")

--gejyspa

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:09 PM, = Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wr= ote:

What if, for example,= two people gave one thing !one or more people? Wouldn't that be more than = one x1 and, mazbe more than one x3?

Sent from my iPod

On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:50 PM, = Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

By definition, any selbri has one, and only one, "x1".

"= x1" is the conventional name we use to indicate the first sumti place, "x2"= is the second sumti place and so on.

It's not a strict rule, you can use othe means to indicate the sumti places= of a selbri. Still there can only be one first place, one second place etc= .

remod

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012, A= nnie wrote:
what = do you d if a word has, for example, more than one x1 or whatever?

Sent from my iPod

On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Remo Dent= ato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012, Annie wrote:=
How can pronouns = be so complicated that you have to have a whole chapter on them?

It only seems complica= ted because you are thinking about them in terms of pronouns.
In lojban there are no "nouns" and, hence, no "pronouns".
Once you get the basic concepts of sumti and selbri, it will be easier.
Exactly as {lo plise ku} is a sumti the refers to "an apple", {= mi} is a sumti that refers to the current speaker, {ko'a} is a sumti that r= efers to whatever I had assigned to it, {ti} refers to something that is cl= ose to me and I'm pointing at and so on.

This is what we intended when we said that it is better not to try to = make direct comparisons between Lojban and English (or any other language).= It may be useful at the beginning but should not be talen too far.

remod

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