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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 01:35:41 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: [bpfk] polysemy of {nai}
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Let me see if I understand negators correctly (scheme attached in a file to 
this post).

{na'e} says that we are somewere at another point but on the same scale.
{no'e} says we are in the middle of the same scale.
{to'e} says that we are at the opposite point of the same scale.
{na'i} says that we are outside this scale (i.e. this predicate 
relationship)
{na}. Here I have a problem. According to what I draw {na} means that we 
are not at this point of this scale and may be even outside this scale.
So for me {na} is (warning! bad grammar follows) {na'i ja na'e}.

But may be you prove me wrong (I'm not sure myself).

Anyway, I want all types of negation to fit on the same scheme.
Last time when I draw a similar scheme I could completely solve (at least 
for myself) the problem of subjunctives in lojban.
Now it's time for negation.


On Friday, December 7, 2012 12:28:51 AM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
>
> I think this is more appropriate for the main list. 
>
> la gleki wrote: 
> > Even the current grammar has two meanings of {nai}. 
> > Such "polysemy" (although lacking ambiguity in any case) might lead to 
> > inconvenience for newbies. 
> > Why {nai} actually means 
> > 1. to'e (UInai) 
> > 2. na (NU NAI = NU NA KU ZOhU, the same with connectives and BAI)? 
> > 
> > The proposal http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Move+NAI+to+CAI adds the third 
> > meaning (na'e). 
>
> There is one "meaning" - a syntactically appropriate afterthought 
> negation of a single word.  The semantics of that negation are specific 
> to what is being negated, but generally it is a scalar/contrary negation 
> (cf. na'e) of the specific word being marked.  Sometimes the nature of 
> the construct means that a scalar negation is effectively equivalent to 
> a contradictory negation (cf. na) (this is especially the case for 
> logical connectives, by intent).


I understand that on boolean scale {na'e=to'e}  but what is {na} then?

>
>
> As a scalar negation, it is NOT the equivalent of to'e when attached to 
> a UI, but rather na'e (generalized rather than extreme contrary 
> negation).


na'e is {cu'i ja to'e} (grammar ingnored), isn't it?

 naicai would be the afterthought "nai"-like equivalent of 
> to'e when attached to UI.  That said, sometimes a scalar situation 
> degenerates to the point where to'e and na'e are equivalent in meaning. 


This is not the case with some UI that have {cu'i}  as an appropriate point 
on the scale.

>
>   The separate words exist for those situations when the scale is NOT 
> degenerate. 
>
> > Next question is why {nai} should move to CAI and then to UI when UI 
> > have no truth value? 
>
> It shouldn't, and I have no idea why such a thing would be proposed (I 
> haven't read the cited proposal, and personally don't consider any 
> proposals until/unless formally brought before byfy - not that I know 
> what the procedure for doing so would be these days). 
>

One more vite that it shouldn't be done. Therefore, the poll is closed.
moving to CAI - may be.
moving to UI - no.
:)


> We specifically considered that when solving the negation problem.  Most 
> languages have oversimplified and degenerate forms of negation (probably 
> because logical complexity is "inconvenient for newbies").  TLI Loglan 
> does so.  Lojban specifically tried to improve on that situation. 
>
> > If so why having {to'e}, {no'e} and {na'e} and if they can be always 
> > optionally replaced with {nai}, {cu'i} and some experimental cmavo (e.g. 
> > {ne'e}) correspondingly? 
>
> They can't be so replaced, unless some proposal screws up the language 
> in an attempt to oversimplify the negation problem.  Having multiple 
> words allows the semantics of each situation to resolve over time with 
> usage evolving the way each word is interpreted. 
>

That's what I'm proposing. Separate words for different meanings.
 

>
> Note also that nai is afterthought (like UI) while the NAhE family of 
> words are forethought and can be used with larger constructs than a 
> single word. 
>

UI/CAI can be used with larger constructions, don't they? 

>
> lojbab 
>

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Let me see if I understand negators correctly (scheme attached in a file to=
 this post).<div><br></div><div>{na'e} says that we are somewere at another=
 point but on the same scale.<br>{no'e} says we are in the middle of the sa=
me scale.</div><div>{to'e} says that we are at the opposite point of the sa=
me scale.</div><div>{na'i} says that we are outside this scale (i.e. this p=
redicate relationship)</div><div>{na}. Here I have a problem. According to =
what I draw {na} means that we are not at this point of this scale and may =
be even outside this scale.</div><div>So for me {na} is (warning! bad gramm=
ar follows) {na'i ja na'e}.</div><div><br></div><div>But may be you prove m=
e wrong (I'm not sure myself).</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, I want all =
types of negation to fit on the same scheme.</div><div>Last time when I dra=
w a similar scheme I could completely solve (at least for myself) the probl=
em of subjunctives in lojban.</div><div>Now it's time for negation.</div><d=
iv><br><br>On Friday, December 7, 2012 12:28:51 AM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:<blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-=
left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">I think this is more appropriate f=
or the main list.
<br>
<br>la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt; Even the current grammar has two meanings of {nai}.
<br>&gt; Such "polysemy" (although lacking ambiguity in any case) might lea=
d to
<br>&gt; inconvenience for newbies.
<br>&gt; Why {nai} actually means
<br>&gt; 1. to'e (UInai)
<br>&gt; 2. na (NU NAI =3D NU NA KU ZOhU, the same with connectives and BAI=
)?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; The proposal <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Move+NAI+to+CAI=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<wbr>Move+NAI+to+CAI</a> add=
s the third
<br>&gt; meaning (na'e).
<br>
<br>There is one "meaning" - a syntactically appropriate afterthought=20
<br>negation of a single word. &nbsp;The semantics of that negation are spe=
cific=20
<br>to what is being negated, but generally it is a scalar/contrary negatio=
n=20
<br>(cf. na'e) of the specific word being marked. &nbsp;Sometimes the natur=
e of=20
<br>the construct means that a scalar negation is effectively equivalent to=
=20
<br>a contradictory negation (cf. na) (this is especially the case for=20
<br>logical connectives, by intent).</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I unde=
rstand that on boolean scale {na'e=3Dto'e} &nbsp;but what is {na} then?</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;b=
order-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>As a scalar negation, it is NOT the equivalent of to'e when attached to=
=20
<br>a UI, but rather na'e (generalized rather than extreme contrary=20
<br>negation).</blockquote><div><br></div><div>na'e is {cu'i ja to'e} (gram=
mar ingnored), isn't it?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left: 1ex;"> &nbsp;naicai would be the afterthought "nai"-like equivalen=
t of=20
<br>to'e when attached to UI. &nbsp;That said, sometimes a scalar situation=
=20
<br>degenerates to the point where to'e and na'e are equivalent in meaning.=
 </blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is not the case with some UI that ha=
ve {cu'i} &nbsp;as an appropriate point on the scale.</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&nbsp; The separate words exist for those situations when the scale is =
NOT=20
<br>degenerate.
<br>
<br>&gt; Next question is why {nai} should move to CAI and then to UI when =
UI
<br>&gt; have no truth value?
<br>
<br>It shouldn't, and I have no idea why such a thing would be proposed (I=
=20
<br>haven't read the cited proposal, and personally don't consider any=20
<br>proposals until/unless formally brought before byfy - not that I know=
=20
<br>what the procedure for doing so would be these days).
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>One more vite that it shouldn't be don=
e. Therefore, the poll is closed.</div><div>moving to CAI - may be.</div><d=
iv>moving to UI - no.</div><div>:)</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>We specifically considered that when solving the negation problem. &nbs=
p;Most=20
<br>languages have oversimplified and degenerate forms of negation (probabl=
y=20
<br>because logical complexity is "inconvenient for newbies"). &nbsp;TLI Lo=
glan=20
<br>does so. &nbsp;Lojban specifically tried to improve on that situation.
<br>
<br>&gt; If so why having {to'e}, {no'e} and {na'e} and if they can be alwa=
ys
<br>&gt; optionally replaced with {nai}, {cu'i} and some experimental cmavo=
 (e.g.
<br>&gt; {ne'e}) correspondingly?
<br>
<br>They can't be so replaced, unless some proposal screws up the language=
=20
<br>in an attempt to oversimplify the negation problem. &nbsp;Having multip=
le=20
<br>words allows the semantics of each situation to resolve over time with=
=20
<br>usage evolving the way each word is interpreted.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That's what I'm proposing. Separate wo=
rds for different meanings.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Note also that nai is afterthought (like UI) while the NAhE family of=
=20
<br>words are forethought and can be used with larger constructs than a=20
<br>single word.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>UI/CAI can be used with larger constru=
ctions, don't they?&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"=
>
<br>lojbab
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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ojban-beginners/-/FUR_YjLH81QJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
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