Received: from mail-ie0-f191.google.com ([209.85.223.191]:55827) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tf9BV-0001eU-Gv; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:22 -0800 Received: by mail-ie0-f191.google.com with SMTP id c13sf1773116ieb.8 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mkRh0lwkvyxzD6rg3Jbi3kjnUCHPX6BswMMQg6jq1X4=; b=bTkhRzV3pqUBR69+31J0vOM/8IkR+9rWfXgCP0roax7h3jo5YXBp7R6SNJ0f1NO97C emXrDctNisKttjJfJIWPm+PusUT93aP4co4cpzFx4EmXoRnYAaWnCd3THdMFM8xR3JmJ 3tLxF3/xzyc1P1Crmywc75ZO6p52C80n+zMxGOxrpUic4pA4r6p6xMvl6a44dt7wD2v1 cQwqnoRH3EvI2NlBd444xUPzab09+E6Tsgci7yIPXjQ+x6hj0uxGxl+v1sjPrwJ4X52l yzCQT5/XyGQDAeiHdnffcc/cx1rTzVpNr0R4nBR4lV3qPwGv6vJxDSPMmxGTHbrR3QMf 25BQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mkRh0lwkvyxzD6rg3Jbi3kjnUCHPX6BswMMQg6jq1X4=; b=rOQkJ3PEZIPwr1ShNdSsmu9UkdNPDOkXAxah8gZXcLbnt8dqDxZvwfPY88KaJMH3pm Yx+wEy+MATsDGM4E1gnbBuIF5UlAjVhShVyTHqUf4CsX8/j/c4tAq6PRSL4K8CP29gc2 jOtFYdRNXux81s6KYgBUTDDPqOEry2EwFTz6Gn+CE/OF06KdYfbzd+UQHfGzo1GtLQOt nAaTpAxoRLKJapRCQlgpRHbTuzP/qfusqPZBcdEbWT76S5hSNtpRjldmwHoGuPSlTRfw 6LTeRA+Pqsu/ia+uXOfW1IULv/5WzLKU5veySst22zE8ggu9EMf6VXoLUzy/WlMJFY4f owlQ== Received: by 10.50.196.135 with SMTP id im7mr1065619igc.1.1354453326108; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:06 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.0.208 with SMTP id 16ls1120179igg.1.canary; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.147.10 with SMTP id l10mr5082006icv.3.1354453324729; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.147.10 with SMTP id l10mr5082005icv.3.1354453324708; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s15si523370igi.1.2012.12.02.05.02.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.180; Received: by mail-ob0-f180.google.com with SMTP id wd20so1625013obb.11 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.235.46 with SMTP id uj14mr1991626obc.40.1354453323232; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 05:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.178.237 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 05:02:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <33272af0-7522-44d7-a040-e451bf851595@googlegroups.com> <3c1628ec-40a0-41fd-90a9-65e110d9ab0a@googlegroups.com> <748b91a9-e6b3-485e-8049-0f5d2521350e@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 06:02:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Why no "about" brivla? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93b602432374404cfde3d2d X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 16344 --14dae93b602432374404cfde3d2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:48 AM, la gleki wrote: > On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:32:48 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, la gleki wrote: >> >>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:15:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17 AM, tijlan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek wrote: >>>>>>>>> > This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for >>>>>>>>> instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many >>>>>>>>> other things). Consider: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} could possibly >>>>>>>> mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, may be it's not that something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana} >>>>>>> but rather wrong usage and/or glossing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *srana x1 pertains to/is germane/relevant to/concerns/is >>>>>>> related/associated with/is about x2.* >>>>>>> *ckini x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationship >>>>>>> x3.* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If we arbitrarily chose parts of those definitions we'd get >>>>>>> * srana x1 is relevant to x2 >>>>>>> ckini x1 is relevant to x2 >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> which is nonsense. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ckini wouldn't be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for >>>>>> another, it isn't "relevant", it's "related". The Cold War isn't relevant >>>>>> to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, it should be >>>>> * srana x1 is releted to x2* >>>>> * ckini x1 is related to x2 by relationship x3* >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi'o}, which makes them >>>> synonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru = {klama zi'o zi'o}). >>>> >>> >>> Haven't you read my previous post? I mean that choosing words from full >>> definitions ARBITRARILY can lead to this result which is nonsense. >>> ju'o it's all bad glossing. >>> I suggest that srana refers to topic and ckini means "to be associated >>> with". >>> to dedicate is {finfriti}, {tecu'u} etc. >>> >> >> No, ko'a srana ko'e means that ko'a is relevant to ko'e, i.e. ko'a has >> something to do with ko'e. >> >> While it is true that the topic of something is pertinent, something >> which is pertinent is not necessarily the topic. >> > > Then what is your opinion about my first post? Is it true that "topic" > brivla has right to exist on it's own? > My opinion is that sera'a serves the purpose. As I said, "that which is pertinent to A" is a superset of "the topic of A". > Roosevelt is pertinent to the Great Depression, but he is most certainly >> /not/ the topic of it. >> >> >>> (Btw, in my view, zi'o doesn't say that there is no such thing as >>>> whatever place it's in, but just that it's not important. For example, >>>> {ko'a klama zi'o zi'o ...} doesn't mean there /isn't/ an origin or >>>> destination, it just means that they don't matter. Dissenters should use >>>> zo'e instead.) >>>> >>> >>> I think the CLL says almost the same. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> If {srana} really gives us thematic role then all the other "is >>>>>>> relevant to" meanings can be assigned to {ckini/seki'i}. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/** >>> msg/lojban-beginners/-/**UZopTp21hiIJ >>> . >>> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.**com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@** >>> googlegroups.com. >>> >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/lojban-beginners?hl=en >>> . >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/kQJ2iFS5UZ4J. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --14dae93b602432374404cfde3d2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:48 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:32:48 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
= On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.= ..@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:15:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sun, Dec 2= , 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com= > wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Dec 1, 201= 2 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6= :17 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wr= ote:

On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:=
> This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is.

An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a work
of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many
other things). Consider:

la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli

This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl -- it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.

I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} coul= d possibly mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain.

Well, may be it's no= t that something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana} but rather wrong usage= and/or glossing.

srana=A0x1 pertains to/is ger= mane/relevant to/concerns/is related/associated with/is about x2.
ckini =A0x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationshi= p x3.

If we arbitrarily chose parts of those d= efinitions we'd get
=A0 srana x1 is relevant to x2
=A0 ckini = =A0x1 is relevant to x2
which is nonsense.

ckini wouldn&#= 39;t be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for another, it isn&#= 39;t "relevant", it's "related". The Cold War isn&#= 39;t relevant to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it).<= br>

Sorry, it should be=A0
=A0 srana x1 is releted to x2
=A0 ckini = =A0x1 is related to x2=A0by relationship x3

Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi'o}, which makes them sy= nonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru =3D {klama zi'o zi= 'o}).

Haven= 't you read my previous post? I mean that choosing words from full defi= nitions ARBITRARILY can lead to this result which is nonsense.
ju'o it's all bad glossing.
I suggest that srana ref= ers to topic and ckini means "to be associated with".
t= o dedicate is {finfriti}, {tecu'u} etc.

No, ko'a srana ko'e means that ko'a is relevant to ko'e, i.= e. ko'a has something to do with ko'e.

While it is true that= the topic of something is pertinent, something which is pertinent is not n= ecessarily the topic.

Then what is your = opinion about my first post? Is it true that "topic" brivla has r= ight to exist on it's own?

My opinion is tha= t sera'a serves the purpose. As I said, "that which is pertinent t= o A" is a superset of "the topic of A".
=A0
Roosevelt is pertinent to the Great Depression, but he is most certainly /n= ot/ the topic of it.
=A0
(Btw, in my view, zi'o doesn't say that there is no such thing as w= hatever place it's in, but just that it's not important. For exampl= e, {ko'a klama zi'o zi'o ...} doesn't mean there /isn't= / an origin or destination, it just means that they don't matter. Disse= nters should use zo'e instead.)

I think the CLL says alm= ost the same.
=A0
=A0
=A0
If {srana} really g= ives us thematic role then all the other "is relevant to" meaning= s can be assigned to {ckini/seki'i}.

--
mu'= o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i d= oi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your fath= er. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.= google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/UZopTp21hiIJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com= .
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@g= ooglegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/<= u>group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pi= lno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! = Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.= google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/kQJ2iFS5UZ4J.
=

=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--14dae93b602432374404cfde3d2d--