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Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 22:08:20 -0300
Message-ID: <CALMa68qP4te_dyq1UWJWT=XL00SyVZuhXRtr5Eo-cMMycWNLog@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Possessives
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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My first opinion on this is that you should be careful of not scaring
people in the beginners list.
Please move the discussion to the main list.

With regards to "multiple xn", Annie, you should do fine connecting
sumti with {jo'u}.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 29 December 2012 19:19, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:
> la tsani cu retsku di'e
>
>> I'm joking far more than I'm serious in saying this, but considering
>> that {lo djine} is a constant, wouldn't {la .djan. e la .djim. dunda > lo
>> djine la .meris.} mean that they each gave her *the same* ring :P ?
>
> la gejyspa cu spusku di'e
>
>>    Yes, I believe it would, although I don't  know if xorlo affects
>> that.  I didn't mean to say it wouldn't.  The second sentence would be
>> one instance of giving (e.g they presented it to her together).  But the
>> first sentence (to me) would still imply they both gave her a particular
>> ring (since it's only specified once), but they might have given it to
>> her at different times.
>
>
> xorlo does and doesn't affect this. Prior to xorlo, lo djine = su'o lo djine
> (with old-lo) = "at least one of all the rings there are".
>
> With old-lo:
> (1) la djan e la djim cu dunda [su'o] lo djine la meris
>
> The ".e" has scope over "su'o", so both John and Jim give at least one ring
> to Mary. It doesn't say that they give the same ring (and they probably
> don't).
>
> If you wanted both of them to give Mary the same ring, you'd have to move
> the PA lo djine in front of the ".e" to fix the scope:
>
> (2) pa da poi djine zo'u la djan e la djim cu dunda da la meris
>     "There exists [exactly] one ring, such that both John and jim give it to
> Mary."
>
> xorlo affects this in that it removes default quantifiers from all sumti
> (except da), which means scope no longer plays a role when using a
> description like "lo djine".
> The vagueness remains in the xorlo version, however; It is not specified if
> they both give the same ring to Mary or not in:
>
> (3) la djan e la djim cu dunda lo djine la meris
>
> All it says that they give a ring.
>
> Again, a quantifier with scope over the ".e" can be introduced to have both
> of them give the same ring to Mary as in (2).
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>
>
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