Received: from mail-vb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]:37953)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBDA4JGNARYDBBHOQSKDQKGQED27REOY@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TqVyH-0001mF-5K; Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:41 -0800
Received: by mail-vb0-f61.google.com with SMTP id fs19sf9085837vbb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:26 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type;
        bh=N2vwr/vTGnaU/tUBdYVpL3uw09h/s3KsXGapOIQwPgA=;
        b=en1eWuYhEa7PsMgks+eozbwiiygQMiksUJr9ir3bL1hMebwKQu3tVOzK9JSSZ/DQeh
         GMqQy66Ei6PD2p4xajcsneWQTRXmmuME40h7Sj3uF6vgVIRBtidUTcycw6d2FAqe1tyL
         Lf45C/hWLfqFH65PqF/iRnWKeHqbAIQ/KlaMycXJI2rv/zfCWVprG+QxsKcngXuSQuj4
         qT2CBOVZz8O0TevOfYEKfXFXJqXUvo46CXrKI1as1igjDiHOtfSMuJt8+mQ55EY+3Nkv
         cmbZ+lMqL4FgDB5dLzD9JPoUCrUHMR1cB+19SRirIyWwZc63k9yqJV3oeVEuUt7UuM0D
         3B5Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type;
        bh=N2vwr/vTGnaU/tUBdYVpL3uw09h/s3KsXGapOIQwPgA=;
        b=iG+DpwgcKFZVZEqVPXNcaj0Fu03SUtuf2p6dKbuo1f7dA4XFXl8+ivXXXT0wfoC5Ol
         TdgetO9Qwlzx47D8LrAYYe2Vnisgjk658P6thokODfsig1Vi6KBeIWlOCdTbIBPTtJUd
         FNI3T0XF44RJERR5XtokLH3RiA/EE8hDia2pvI/f268wSvrleVMNyJyWgzqyIz9pX56b
         5fs3FJYn2YGvPKCBkfYBqkD4OKhyzzNY3Y0Z/T6pEMZWE9n37GxPUQg9igsGtNiBpr0l
         gMD+siFuxrSgfx8r5E0Z0ElEhNcLWCEIaiPM5qM/CM/1gfhOLAqMAiWaBzus7PVMCu22
         KzcA==
X-Received: by 10.50.216.170 with SMTP id or10mr13147851igc.15.1357162525473;
        Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:25 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.208.2 with SMTP id ma2ls14091088igc.22.canary; Wed, 02 Jan
 2013 13:35:25 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.42.212.209 with SMTP id gt17mr35158963icb.31.1357162525044;
        Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:25 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.42.212.209 with SMTP id gt17mr35158960icb.31.1357162525022;
        Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-oa0-f44.google.com (mail-oa0-f44.google.com [209.85.219.44])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vb4si3703893igb.2.2013.01.02.13.35.24
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:25 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.44;
Received: by mail-oa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id n5so13556970oag.31
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:24 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.60.172.229 with SMTP id bf5mr25841974oec.81.1357162524730;
 Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:35:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.60.178.237 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:35:24 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAMKwHj0UrfgnRoPL+m5h09r4vSyfvSk96AqpL+pezcN7hvv8aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFMpiYpA3arKUS-6qMMRRMN_j-8sN_EWSWCYk1YGYnGZP+9-Xg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+gZtgJz93nZ-ACjFdOVR4VUXvoDzYrCuMNUX+C7Y+a5Sac7wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAQ0imPeovkaWoaC2534hTdA2_aURSj1nQxRGYHP49F9s4L0DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOQ8VDX6DAyTpfh7b9gEy0nY1n30uUYougz0A8B0Q3jCvzvFpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAQ0imNpuzXCixYTzjVRn7321GyJeKcVZC==gD7yG1-52Tkn_A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj0bdxsmCyR97A0=hrvrhDhTkupOz+UBe1=zgog6zjMv7Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj1bsx0SQeru8e6o7kRJdUPbdJGb0ohEuVuP0rzamOjQuw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAQ0imOgyvFPm9ryj3=3dkd_Ypj0azkMapVRObK=3N+SSNB=uw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj3tGaFTxr++ZdiCiWs5JH9=Bv+8KMULAvA08PzoxWc5Jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAQ0imOYAOpqhQqO059zFBfOxUuCEiREmAPsp=USgZEO1adHhg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj0UrfgnRoPL+m5h09r4vSyfvSk96AqpL+pezcN7hvv8aw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 14:35:24 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj2mEC5bF-rfh2=rtscBCWRAdYhwrmx9m_Dk1gSL9dOpbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners]
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.44 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec54ee86c30648104d25506c5
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /
Content-Length: 7930

--bcaec54ee86c30648104d25506c5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're not suggesting that the same rule applies to {-me'a}, right?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Basically, yes.
>>>
>>>
>> Ok, but if (following the {-gau} pattern)
>>     {ko'a rodme'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a}
>> means
>>     {ko'a mleca lo su'u ko'e broda ko'i k'o' ko'u fo'a}
>>
>> I fail to understand how something may be less than an abstraction. The
>> problem is that mleca2 is the term of comparison.
>>
>
> Yes, in the case of rodme'a, it would be {mleca fi lo [ka/ni] broda},
> hence the need for minor adjustments depending on the actual gismu in use.
>

The "minor adjustment" being, obviously, that the place in brode that is
defined as requiring an abstraction, is the the broda abstraction goes.

Also, the reason why all but the first sumti in -gau jvajvo are sucked into
the abstraction is because gasnu only has two places: the agent, and the
thing caused by the agent. -bo'e arguments are always filled before rod-
arguments.


> In the list I made I try to accound for the difference in sumti places.
>> Writing down the gloss in Lojban makes clear how each one shouldbe used
>>
>> Maybe those changes in my list are the "adjustments" you mentioned?
>>
>> remo
>>
>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>



-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


--bcaec54ee86c30648104d25506c5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Jonathan=
 Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:05 PM=
, Remo Dentato <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdentato@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rdentato@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div>On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Remo Dentato <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:rdentato@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rdentato@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


</div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>You&#39;re not suggesting that the same rule applies =
to {-me&#39;a}, right?<br></div></div></blockquote></div></div><br clear=3D=
"all">Basically, yes.<div><div><br></div></div></blockquote>
</div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Ok, but if (following the =
{-gau} pattern)<br>=A0 =A0=20
{ko&#39;a rodme&#39;a ko&#39;e ko&#39;i ko&#39;o ko&#39;u fo&#39;a}<br>mean=
s<br>=A0=A0=A0 {ko&#39;a mleca lo su&#39;u ko&#39;e=20
broda ko&#39;i k&#39;o&#39; ko&#39;u fo&#39;a} <br><br>I fail to understand=
 how something may be less than an abstraction. The problem is that mleca2 =
is the term of comparison.<br></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>
Yes, in the case of rodme&#39;a, it would be {mleca fi lo [ka/ni] broda}, h=
ence the need for minor adjustments depending on the actual gismu in use.<b=
r></div></div></blockquote><div><br>The &quot;minor adjustment&quot; being,=
 obviously, that the place in brode that is defined as requiring an abstrac=
tion, is the the broda abstraction goes.<br>
<br>Also, the reason why all but the first sumti in -gau jvajvo are sucked =
into the abstraction is because gasnu only has two places: the agent, and t=
he thing caused by the agent. -bo&#39;e arguments are always filled before =
rod- arguments.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">In the list I made=
 I try to accound for the difference in sumti places. Writing down the glos=
s in Lojban makes clear how each one shouldbe used<br>


</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Maybe=
 those changes in my list are the &quot;adjustments&quot; you mentioned? <b=
r><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span><font color=
=3D"#888888"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">

remo<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<br></div></font></span></div><div><div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-begi=
nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners+un=
subscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>

For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></div></blockquote></div></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div class=3D"HO=
EnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#=
39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(=
Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>


</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



--bcaec54ee86c30648104d25506c5--