Received: from mail-vb0-f62.google.com ([209.85.212.62]:51657) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1U1Qfb-00022k-HJ; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:09:31 -0800 Received: by mail-vb0-f62.google.com with SMTP id k17sf1644945vbj.7 for ; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:09:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=y27S5vzhhZQ5P90TexM2hcLg2d/3p49zenYHJOvmSyY=; b=sEWcwc4ZgE+HSqPdZqrunpQAq0Pg91wr0t3MTIi5lJ2gPkjd5ZQkGBgHdkqlrzELs2 3518YoiBKyhtCaxnZoEAPTUHuJHB6WzEXE4TKvlfz1ZqX8XrUcNGcnU9vO0WxNi0WyBw i962AUp1cRAKL6EVrMuaEsVzD2YCoerD9Hw/XVRQJYWtI5OJxq5UByU0SXlyzNs1T/4g qzkjDBWt4W6wVEovbPSsdKdlWunnlP1E1zWtbn7ciY2QhVYknn/zXw4w87g4/QqKznPH H4Vx+s8o2q2yZayhxgcKljagwX7XmDvS8w7cHKGBQB159p/00tPFdzyQaPSsR6Rvw5Iy 5UtQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=y27S5vzhhZQ5P90TexM2hcLg2d/3p49zenYHJOvmSyY=; b=u+4P1vA4BzWKiIKSftP1TZ6nALK3+MRVRKp+xHTcvtN52vkgg/MdpIKQonG/2us6cv ew9can/EL65HRC113SbcA44kwTVfxAnkB4OeeO4+9VEKN7HD8CTYn0aQTpkY6sNOKjgF fwvAV8sGaGspbpPdPT/p67f0cp2JO66OOEvo/AKn9Me1QecPj07T2H3TluyOcsTDVTEd TPyU/yuNDEWcH64ALH9ZrW5+xBLUr4EBeCFsTtQmd86ws70Et8n4QraRMmWaLXCtPRiq yDUGcSdJsxlAQx9s34Mc1wempkqQFruXUKIk/lruTr0+Q9Nzuq1ZEnF+Ng1JmiDC+46j xIvQ== X-Received: by 10.49.24.13 with SMTP id q13mr1367132qef.33.1359763740565; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:09:00 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.24.19 with SMTP id q19ls1430285qef.84.gmail; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.255.136 with SMTP id aq8mr6043932ved.29.1359763739150; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.255.136 with SMTP id aq8mr6043931ved.29.1359763739132; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-f171.google.com (mail-ve0-f171.google.com [209.85.128.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h20si2419197vdg.3.2013.02.01.16.08.59 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.128.171; Received: by mail-ve0-f171.google.com with SMTP id b10so3399733vea.2 for ; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.52.21.175 with SMTP id w15mr11318955vde.100.1359763738939; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:08:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.188.116 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 16:08:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: MorphemeAddict Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 19:08:27 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Place structure "types" To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307c9bbaa350a304d4b2aa80 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 10096 --20cf307c9bbaa350a304d4b2aa80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Judson Lester wrote: > I'm editing a flash card deck of lojban words for my own use, and one of > the things that's struck me is how often gismu constrain the kinds of > things in a position. > > Most of the time the constraint makes sense (at least in a "sure, I can > see it" kind of way) but as I find more gismu where a position is defined > as being a person or an event (and all the ones that are {ka}) when the > other way might make sense, I begin to wonder more and more why (or if?) > the suggested kinds for a place aren't merely a guidance. > > For example, I'm just looking at > > jenca: x1 (event) shocks/stuns x2 > > What would be the problem with "do jenca mi"? I suppose there's some > elided abstraction that I could use in the x1 place to mean "some event > related to you" - but why would that be neccesary? > > Or do I misunderstand - is the point that jenca describes a shock related > to an event, and *therefore* "do jenca" implies that you did something > shocking on the face of it? > > If it's the latter, are the other abstraction requirements (and other > implied types) likewise looser than I imagine? > > Judson > According to lojbab on Jan. 16, 2013: "The parenthetical use in the gismu list is NOT a restriction (and indeed there aren't really ANY restrictions so long as it is grammatical - the semantics of lojban has not been formally defined). It is an indication that, at the time the definition was written, it was believed that the place would most commonly be filled by an abstraction of that type, as opposed to a non-abstraction. These parenthetical invocations of abstraction were added to the place structures as a warning against sumti-raising, which was the then-major topic in semantics of the time. I went through all of the place structures trying to word them to get people to avoid raising a sumti from an implied abstraction and using it in place of the abstraction. A different abstraction is certainly permissible, and indeed the definition says "remembers/recalls/recollects facts/memory x2" A du'u is obviously what one remembers when one remembers a "fact", but is not how one would normally express a "memory" which might indeed be a li'i. I/we simply had not considered the full possibilities of how one describes a memory, and thus did not specify how to do so in x2. We had used du'u, and most important, wanted to stress that the place was normally going to be an abstraction." stevo > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. 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On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Judson L= ester <nyarly@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm editing a flash card deck of lojban words for my o= wn use, and one of the things that's struck me is how often gismu const= rain the kinds of things in a position.

Most of the time= the constraint makes sense (at least in a "sure, I can see it" k= ind of way) but as I find more gismu where a position is defined as being a= person or an event (and all the ones that are {ka}) when the other way mig= ht make sense, I begin to wonder more and more why (or if?) the suggested k= inds for a place aren't merely a guidance.

For example, I'm just looking at

jenca:=A0x1 (event)= shocks/stuns x2

What would be the problem with= "do jenca mi"? =A0I suppose there's some elided abstraction = that I could use in the x1 place to mean "some event related to you&qu= ot; - but why would that be neccesary?

Or do I misunderstand - i= s the point that jenca describes a shock related to an event, and *therefor= e* "do jenca" implies that you did something shocking on the face= of it?

If it's the latter, a= re the other abstraction requirements (and other implied types) likewise lo= oser than I imagine?

Judson

According to lojbab on Jan. = 16, 2013:=A0
"The parentheti= cal use in the gismu list is NOT a restriction (and indeed there aren't= really ANY restrictions so long as it is grammatical - the semantics of lo= jban has not been formally defined).

It is an indication that, at the time the = definition was written, it was believed that the place would most commonly = be filled by an abstraction of that type, as opposed to a non-abstraction. = =A0These parenthetical invocations of abstraction were added to the place s= tructures as a warning against sumti-raising, which was the then-major topi= c in semantics of the time. =A0I went through all of the place structures t= rying to word them to get people to avoid raising a sumti from an implied a= bstraction and using it in place of the abstraction.

A different abstraction is certainly = permissible, and indeed the definition says "remembers/recalls/recolle= cts facts/memory x2" =A0A du'u is obviously what one remembers whe= n one remembers a "fact", but is not how one would normally expre= ss a "memory" which might indeed be a li'i. =A0I/we simply ha= d not considered the full possibilities of how one describes a memory, and = thus did not specify how to do so in x2. =A0We had used du'u, and most = important, wanted to stress that the place was normally going to be an abst= raction."

stevo=A0

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=A0
=A0

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