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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 13:54:33 -0300
Message-ID: <CALMa68qP3=PLkG0B=_MENioqTAXBs_8BNrSGdVE8-jcVwKtiQw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] search for happiness. {sisku lo selgleki} or
 {sisku lo ka selgleki}?
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Yeah, similarly, I pose that djica2 should be a {du'u}.

On 11 February 2013 13:00, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:20:59 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>>
>> On 10 February 2013 08:07, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 11:17:59PM -0500, Jacob Errington wrote:
>>> > On 9 February 2013 22:14, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>>> > > On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 09:31:12PM -0500, Jacob Errington wrote:
>>> > > > With this definition, we can easily create a predicate meaning "to
>>> > > > look
>>> > > for
>>> > > > properties that make you happy", e.g. {.i mi sisku lo ka mi gleki
>>> > > > ce'u}.
>>> > >
>>> > > Didn't you mean to say events/states here instead of properties?
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > No, I did intend to say properties, due to my general philosophy about
>>> > Lojban predicates: if an intrinsic connection between a sumti and an
>>> > abstraction exists in a given selbri, then that abstraction is a
>>> > property
>>> > of that sumti.
>>>
>>> Ok, that seems to be a sane perspective. Although, I'm rather sure,
>>> it overrides quite some learning material, so you have to deal with
>>> alternative views as well..
>>>
>>> > > That's what gleki2 is supposed to be. Mixing up terms here is
>>> > > confusing.
>>> >
>>> > It's been said in at least a few other posts, [...] that the type
>>> > restrictions in brackets in the gismu list are not prescriptive.
>>>
>>> > That being said, the gismu list simply tells us that the x2 must be an
>>> > abstraction, with the *suggestion* that it should be an event or state.
>>> > I
>>> > disagree with that suggestion, and due to its non-prescriptive nature,
>>> > am
>>> > entitled to use a ka-abstraction there.
>>>
>>> Yes, you are. but in {.i mi sisku lo ka mi gleki ce'u} you didn't say
>>> that the
>>> {ce'u} place is to be a ka-abstraction. Therefore, this can't just be
>>> translated as "to look for properties that make you happy", because "to
>>> look
>>> for events that make you happy" is at least an equally good translation.
>>> "to look for abstractions that make you happy" would be more fitting
>>> for all possible interpretations, I suppose.
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry about that confusion then. You're right, I should have made it
>> more clear. I also agree that "abstractions" would have been better overall.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, at least in my philosophy, you can become happy about an event
>>> you're not involved in. {mi gleki lonu do citka lo plise} is a perfectly
>>> valid sentence, so you're argument from above doesn't really restrict
>>> the type of abstraction here, necessarily.
>>>
>>
>> Right. That's the downside to this system: it winds up requiring some
>> extra verbosity if you want to use an event that doesn't involve the formal
>> argument. The solution that I made up for this when I first considered a new
>> system for abstractions involved introducing a small exception: lifri2 is a
>> {li'i}, rather than a {ka}, and the li'i-bridi doesn't need to contain ce'u.
>> When a li'i-abstraction is used inside a ka-abstraction, the ce'u-place
>> typically finds its way into li'i2, and then all is well.
>>
>> {.i mi gleki lo ka [se] li'i do citka lo plise}.
>>
>> The major advantage, however, of my abstractions system is that is makes
>> producing jvajvo simpler. If we consider any lujvo of the type -dji, the
>> jvajvo become a bit annoying, because djica2 is a {nu} (something I have yet
>> to believe should be a {ka}).
>
>
> if in some parallel world lojbanists would make djica {ka}-like  then how
> would they express "I want you to eat an apple"?
> {mi djica lo ka viska lo nu do citka lo plise}?
>
>> e.g. ctidji = x1 djica lo nu *x2* citka x3 kei x4
>> Saying that there's a place merger is pretty wrong, because the Lojban
>> definition then becomes slightly ridiculous. Place mergers should only occur
>> on the same abstraction-level.
>> e.g. pampe'o = x1 boi x2 prami gi'e pendo
>>
>> Because of this inconvenience with {djica} and other nu-type selbri, many
>> lujvo makers simply drop the annoying x2 place. When speaking the full
>> structures, leaving out the x1 is simple due to the bridi-tail counting
>> rule, e.g. {.i mi djica lo nu citka lo plise}, but if we use the jvajvo, FA
>> cmavo or repetition become inevitable, e.g. {.i mi ctidji fi lo plise}.
>>
>> Indeed, ka-selbri are nicer in jvajvo: {.i mi ctika'e lo plise} -> {.i mi
>> kakne lo ka [ce'u] citka lo plise}.
>>
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
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