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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Place structure "types"
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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Allowing for implicit raising leads to issues when you go to use articles
to extract places from such bridi. For example, you get {lo jenca} and now
if you allow for implicit raising you can't tell whether it's an event or a
concrete object. This makes it border on useless by itself because you
don't even know what sort of thing it is. Making the distinction with
tu'a/jai is quick and clarifies matters. (That said, the lack of
consistency in what the gimste deems to be raising and what isn't is a bit
of a problem. fenki is an example of this.)

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Judson Lester <nyarly@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  What would be the problem with "do jenca mi"?  I suppose there's some
>>> elided abstraction that I could use in the x1 place to mean "some event
>>> related to you" - but why would that be neccesary?
>>>
>>
>> Simply because the English "You shocked me!" actually means "What you
>> just did shocked me!". This has to do with the issue "sumti raising", which
>> has been bandied about countless times throughout the years.
>>
>
> I've got two follow on questions, then:
>
>
>    1. The easy one: "tu'a do jenca mi" would be semantically valid,
>    though?  Maybe a little vague, but if you've just punched me in the face,
>    maybe clear enough and readier to hand than "le nu do darxi fo le mi flira
>    cu jenca mi"
>    2. More philosophical: granted that it doesn't make *sense* most of
>    the time that do jenca - because people aren't shocking - why isn't the
>    convention that such places raise their sumti automatically?  Or is the
>    idea that maybe there could be a brain-interacting object that fills the
>    space?
>
> Come to think, would it be reasonable to say something like "lo sidbo
> jenca mi" or would it still need an abstraction related to 'lo nu sidbo fi
> mi' ?  #2 in play as a "why not?" if not.
>
> Judson
>
> --
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Allowing for implicit raising leads to issues when you go to use articles t=
o extract places from such bridi. For example, you get {lo jenca} and now i=
f you allow for implicit raising you can&#39;t tell whether it&#39;s an eve=
nt or a concrete object. This makes it border on useless by itself because =
you don&#39;t even know what sort of thing it is. Making the distinction wi=
th tu&#39;a/jai is quick and clarifies matters. (That said, the lack of con=
sistency in what the gimste deems to be raising and what isn&#39;t is a bit=
 of a problem. fenki is an example of this.)<div>
<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Judson Lester <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:nyarly@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nyarly@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"im">On Fri, F=
eb 1, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"i=
m">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left=
-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>
<span style=3D"font-size:12px;font-family:Arial"></span></div><div><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12px;font-family:Arial">What would be the problem with &qu=
ot;do jenca mi&quot;? =A0I suppose there&#39;s some elided abstraction that=
 I could use in the x1 place to mean &quot;some event related to you&quot; =
- but why would that be neccesary?</span></div>


</div></blockquote></div><div><br>Simply because the English &quot;You shoc=
ked me!&quot; actually means &quot;What you just did shocked me!&quot;. Thi=
s has to do with the issue &quot;sumti raising&quot;, which has been bandie=
d about countless times throughout the years.</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I&#39;ve got two follow on que=
stions, then:</div><div><br></div><div><ol><li>The easy one: &quot;tu&#39;a=
 do jenca mi&quot; would be semantically valid, though? =A0Maybe a little v=
ague, but if you&#39;ve just punched me in the face, maybe clear enough and=
 readier to hand than &quot;le nu do darxi fo le mi flira cu jenca mi&quot;=
</li>

<li>More philosophical: granted that it doesn&#39;t make *sense* most of th=
e time that do jenca - because people aren&#39;t shocking - why isn&#39;t t=
he convention that such places raise their sumti automatically? =A0Or is th=
e idea that maybe there could be a brain-interacting object that fills the =
space?</li>

</ol><div>Come to think, would it be reasonable to say something like &quot=
;lo sidbo jenca mi&quot; or would it still need an abstraction related to &=
#39;lo nu sidbo fi mi&#39; ? =A0#2 in play as a &quot;why not?&quot; if not=
.</div>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div><br></div><div>Judson</div></font></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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=A0<br>
=A0<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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