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Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 00:36:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: .e'o ko pe'u
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https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/mkGI-v2y2zo/discussion

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:30:22 AM UTC+4, .iuROK. wrote:
>
> coi
>
> {ko} is used in Lojban where imperative mood would be used in other 
> languages. The imperative mood is used to communicate:
> * commands;
> * requests;
> * permissions;
> * prohibitions;
> * advices;
> * maybe other things too.
> Of those uses, I think, commands and prohibitions assume listener's 
> obligation to comply; others do not.
>
> In Lojban, using {ko} (or experimental {ko'oi}) is THE method of 
> constructing "imperatives". For me, bare {ko broda} does not carry a 
> connotation of listener's obligation or subordination; it can be a request, 
> a permission, an advice, etc. A "connotation" MAY be conveyed by additional 
> words:
> .i .ei dai ko klama
> .i ko sidju mi pe'u
> .i .e'a ko zutse
> .i .e'u ko sisku
> But default connotation should be unspecified.
>
> However, publications do not adree with my point of view.
> Lojban For Beginners suggests that bare {ko broda} is not polite in a 
> typical situation: 
> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less3soften.html
> CLL calls {ko}-sentences "commands": http://dag.github.io/cll/7/2/
>
> So, what is your point of view?
>
> There are also words {.e'o} and {pe'u}. They are normally used in 
> conjunction with {ko}. But what if they are used without {ko}? Is the 
> resulting bridi a proposition or not?
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Irrealis+Attitudinals
> In this proposal {.e'o do dunda le silna mi} is translated as "Can you 
> pass me the salt, please?", which suggests that {.e'o broda} is a request, 
> NOT a proposition. (Also, that example uses {dunda} in a sense of "pass", 
> "hand"; not "give a gift" as defined in the gusmu list.)
>
> I would prefer having only {ko} as the "magic word" that turns a bridi 
> into a request. Then I would interpret {.e'o broda} as a "weak" proposition 
> with a "connotation" of request. For example, consider a sign {le vi tanxe 
> ku kunti .e'o}.
> Denotation: "this box should be empty".
> Connotation: "don't put stuff here".
> The same to {pe'u}.
>
> And what is your opinion on {.e'o broda}?

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https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/mkGI-v2y2zo/discussion<br><br>On W=
ednesday, May 29, 2013 8:30:22 AM UTC+4, .iuROK. wrote:<blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left: 1ex;">coi<br><br>{ko} is used in Lojban where imperative=
 mood would be used in other languages. The imperative mood is used to comm=
unicate:<br>* commands;<br>* requests;<br>* permissions;<br>* prohibitions;=
<br>* advices;<br>* maybe other things too.<br>Of those uses, I think, comm=
ands and prohibitions assume listener's obligation to comply; others do not=
.<br><br>In Lojban, using {ko} (or experimental {ko'oi}) is THE method of c=
onstructing "imperatives". For me, bare {ko broda} does not carry a connota=
tion of listener's obligation or subordination; it can be a request, a perm=
ission, an advice, etc. A "connotation" MAY be conveyed by additional words=
:<br>.i .ei dai ko klama<br>.i ko sidju mi pe'u<br>.i .e'a ko zutse<br>.i .=
e'u ko sisku<br>But default connotation should be unspecified.<br><br>Howev=
er, publications do not adree with my point of view.<br>Lojban For Beginner=
s suggests that bare {ko broda} is not polite in a typical situation: <a hr=
ef=3D"http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less3soften.h=
tml" target=3D"_blank">http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~<wbr>opoudjis/lojbanbrochure=
/<wbr>lessons/less3soften.html</a><br>CLL calls {ko}-sentences "commands": =
<a href=3D"http://dag.github.io/cll/7/2/" target=3D"_blank">http://dag.gith=
ub.io/cll/7/2/</a><br><br>So, what is your point of view?<br><br>There are =
also words {.e'o} and {pe'u}. They are normally used in conjunction with {k=
o}. But what if they are used without {ko}? Is the resulting bridi a propos=
ition or not?<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+=
Irrealis+Attitudinals" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<wbr>BP=
FK+Section%3A+Irrealis+<wbr>Attitudinals</a><br>In this proposal {.e'o do d=
unda le silna mi} is translated as "Can you pass me the salt, please?", whi=
ch suggests that {.e'o broda} is a request, NOT a proposition. (Also, that =
example uses {dunda} in a sense of "pass", "hand"; not "give a gift" as def=
ined in the gusmu list.)<br><br>I would prefer having only {ko} as the "mag=
ic word" that turns a bridi into a request. Then I would interpret {.e'o br=
oda} as a "weak" proposition with a "connotation" of request. For example, =
consider a sign {le vi tanxe ku kunti .e'o}.<br>Denotation: "this box shoul=
d be empty".<br>Connotation: "don't put stuff here".<br>The same to {pe'u}.=
<br><br>And what is your opinion on {.e'o broda}?</blockquote>

<p></p>

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