On T= hu, May 30, 2013 at 1:28 PM, .iuROK. <yurock.tengo@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:

The discussion was about how to express concepts with "as", such as = "I like you as a friend" and "I respect you as a leader." Others ex= pressed that this is "I like You-As-Friend", that is, the "as" live= s in the sumti,=20 similar to how it does in English. Some suggested a NOI for this; others suggested a brivla with place structure something like "x1 is x2 as= =20 considered in capacity x3 (ka)". All considered this to live at sumti = level.

The easiest I can think= of is:

mi pendo nelci do

Clear enough, I think. And this is = a generic pattern to translate "x1 broda (x2, considered as brode)&quo= t;:

x2 brode se broda x1

Now let's try to expand the tanru. One can like in different ways. That is= , he can have different kinds of positive feelings or attitudes that=20 would qualify for the generic term "x1 likes x2". The correspondi= ng term in Lojban is {nelci}. We need a way to specify which of these kinds of=20 feelings or attitudes x1 has for x2. Or, in other words, in which way x1 likes x2. So, I interpret "I like you as a friend" as "I li= ke you in a=20 way typical for friends". Now to Lojban.

mi nelci do tai lo'= ;e nu zu'i nelci lo pendo be ri

By the way, I don't like the "x considered as y" construction i= n natlangs. I think, it obscures the meaning in many cases. So, my opinion is that=20 implementing it in Lojban would be an awful move. :)

Now to=20 respect. Again, we have a generic term {sinma}, and we need to specify,=20 respect of which kind is it. I think, differences become apparent in=20 different situations. For example, I may feel respect to a jbocre when=20 he talks in or about Lojban; in other words, in a "Lojbanic situation&= quot;.=20 So, "I respect you as a leader" would be:

mi sinma do fau = lo'e nu do gidva

tanru are frequently adequa= te, but I think we pretty much all agree that they aren't a "solut= ion", they're a way of getting things across when it's obvious= what you mean. As the "respect as a leader" example shows, there= are often several obvious things that you might mean by a tanru.

That {tai lo'e nu} construct is interesting, but it seem= s to be more like a selbri relative clause (which is what I proposed on IRC= ) than a tag construct. ({tai} in general is like this, which is why I'= ve never particularly liked it.)

mi'e la latro'a mu'o