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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 23:08:53 +0200
From: Daeldir <daeldir@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban sounds and Wikipedia article about
 those sounds
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On Fri, 31 May 2013 21:05:46 -0700 (PDT)
la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:53:28 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> >
> > On Friday, May 31, 2013 22:11:33 Daeldir wrote:=20
> > > Also, about the =93r=94 (I have a long story with the =93r=94 ;-)), i=
t points to=20
> > an=20
> > > alveolar tap. I thought it was an alveolar trill! My mistake (if it i=
s=20
> > one)=20
> > > comes from [
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban#Phonology_and_orthography],=20
> > > I guess, where an alveolar trill is given for the =93r=94. And it had=
=20
> > something=20
> > > to do with the spanish =93r=94, too, but I don't remember where I did=
 read=20
> > > that, and anyway, on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R], we can see tha=
t=20
> > both=20
> > > sound are used in spanish (so, it was not precise, but not false to d=
o=20
> > that=20
> > > kind of comparison). Well, I would like to know what is the =93best=
=94 sound=20
> > > (as the two are correct, thank to lojban laxism about sounds=20
> > > differentiation). First, to point it as an example, second, to correc=
t=20
> > any=20
> > > =93prefered way=94 that I could have put in the french translation (a=
s the=20
> > > french =93r=94 is really different from both sounds, I spent some tim=
e on=20
> > it).=20
> >
> > Both the tap and the trill are valid "r" sounds, and are allophones in=
=20
> > Lojban=20
> > (unlike Spanish, where they are two different phonemes between vowels).=
 My=20
> > pronunciation rule is something like this: a trill at the beginning or =
end=20
> > of=20
> > a word, a tap between vowels, a trill before a consonant, a tap after a=
=20
> > consonant, and as in English "mercy" between two consonants.=20
>=20
>=20
> What? Is English alveolar/retroflex approximant not allowed?=20
>=20
>=20
> >
> > Pierre=20
> > --=20
> > li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa=20
> >
> >

From my understanding, a lot of =93r=94 sounds are allowed, and so, I think=
, English alveolar/retroflex approximant should be, as long as we don't mis=
understand that sound for an other letter.

My question was about the =93recommended=94 pronunciation (like, the french=
 =93r=94 sound is very strange for many people, but stay correct in lojban,=
 I just wanted people that learn lojban to speak with a lojban accent, and =
not a french accent, if they wish to do so).=20

On an other note, how do you pronunce words like =93darxi=94 or =93xruti=94=
? When I try with a tap, =93xruti=94 become =93xcuti=94 and =93darxi=94 bec=
omes =93dalxi=94. My trill being a uvular one, I manage to pronunce those t=
wo words by =93waving=94 my tongue but=85 Well, I have a hard time learning=
 the =93r=94 (at least, they explained to me an approximated relation beetw=
een the french =93r=94 and the lojban =93x=94 on the french mailing list).=
=20

I didn't like the =93r=94 in italian, I don't really like it in french, I l=
ike that we can almost always omit it in english=85 :-=B0 Well, I'm becomin=
g a bit personnal about that =93r=94=85 Don't I=A0?


Digression:

(well, I already digressed, but the following really has nothing to do abou=
t beginning lojban and is only me sharing thoughts about lojban sounds =96 =
and not about my hatery of the =93r=94)

I find lojban =93poor=94 in sounds, as there is not many of them. But lojba=
n may become rich in =93cultural accents=94, since what is a significant di=
fference in other languages is only a pronunciation singularity in lojban (=
I don't have an exemple in english, but in french, the only way to distingu=
ish =93les frais=94 (the costs) and =93lait frais=94 (fresh milk) is in the=
 accent =96 and people that do not =93hear=94 those accents tend to do terr=
ible mistakes (some french don't hear, or at least speak those accents). Al=
though in =93un brin bien brun=94, some put a difference in each =93un=94, =
but every french understantd it and some don't hear *at all* the difference=
. That would be like in lojban, only =93cosmetic=94 accent. Another example=
 is with the spanish =93r=94: =93pera=94 and =93perra=94 are very different=
 in spanish, but would be the same in lojban).

From that point of view, I think that lojban may =93limit=94 the thoughts. =
Not in =93thinking about the world=94, but in =93percepting the world=94. I=
 can't hear all the different vowels of mandarin. For me, they're all the s=
ame (well, not all, but one of =93my=94 vowels correspond to a lot of =93th=
eir=94 vowels). A native lojban speaker may not be able to distinguish =93g=
oal=94 and =93gull=94, =93pera=94 and =93perra=94 or =93les frais=94 and =
=93lait frais=94=85 (that's pure supposition based on my knowledge of langu=
age acquisition in the first years of life =96 and I don't know if cultural=
 accents will overcome or exacerbate that effect of the language)

I think it's a sad thing. But it's a good strategy=A0: I can learn lojban, =
while I'm stuck in the first lesson of mandarin I ever attempted :-D

I wonder what would be the real impact on sounds understanding. As, for now=
, the only native lojban speakers have two native languages, I don't think =
we will be able to see if the lojban sounds paucity will impact them. Only =
in lojbanistan could we observe such impact :-)

--=20
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