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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban sounds and Wikipedia article about
 those sounds
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 21:55:10 -0400
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On Saturday, June 01, 2013 23:08:53 Daeldir wrote:
> My question was about the =93recommended=94 pronunciation (like, the fren=
ch =93r=94
> sound is very strange for many people, but stay correct in lojban, I just
> wanted people that learn lojban to speak with a lojban accent, and not a
> french accent, if they wish to do so).

I don't think a distinct Lojban accent has evolved yet. We could go by K&F'=
s=20
pronunciation, once they're old enough, but I hesitate to make their=20
pronunciation of "x" normative because their father is missing the uvula.=
=20
Maybe we should wait until a child learns Lojban from two adults with diffe=
rent=20
accents.

> On an other note, how do you pronunce words like =93darxi=94 or =93xruti=
=94? When I
> try with a tap, =93xruti=94 become =93xcuti=94 and =93darxi=94 becomes =
=93dalxi=94. My
> trill being a uvular one, I manage to pronunce those two words by =93wavi=
ng=94
> my tongue but=85 Well, I have a hard time learning the =93r=94 (at least,=
 they
> explained to me an approximated relation beetween the french =93r=94 and =
the
> lojban =93x=94 on the french mailing list).

I didn't explain that, thinking it was a bit too complicated, but here it i=
s:=20
"x" is a voiceless velar or uvular fricative (I'm not sure if I am pronounc=
ing=20
a uvular fricative or trill). "r" is a voiced trill when next to "x"; "x" i=
s=20
uvular when next to "r". "rx" is an alveolar trill followed by a uvular tri=
ll;=20
"xr" is a simultaneous uvulo-alveolar trill which is first voiceless, then=
=20
voiced. If "r" occurs between two "x", as in "rirxrxrone" and "rirxrxrazdan=
i",=20
instead of using the English "r" as I usually do between consonants, I=20
pronounce a double trill and turn the voice on and off. If the sequence end=
s=20
with "x", as in the hypothetical word "maxrxa", I end with a uvular, droppi=
ng=20
the alveolar trill.

> I find lojban =93poor=94 in sounds, as there is not many of them. But loj=
ban may
> become rich in =93cultural accents=94, since what is a significant differ=
ence
> in other languages is only a pronunciation singularity in lojban (I don't
> have an exemple in english, but in french, the only way to distinguish =
=93les
> frais=94 (the costs) and =93lait frais=94 (fresh milk) is in the accent =
=96 and
> people that do not =93hear=94 those accents tend to do terrible mistakes =
(some
> french don't hear, or at least speak those accents). Although in =93un br=
in
> bien brun=94, some put a difference in each =93un=94, but every french
> understantd it and some don't hear *at all* the difference. That would be
> like in lojban, only =93cosmetic=94 accent. Another example is with the s=
panish
> =93r=94: =93pera=94 and =93perra=94 are very different in spanish, but wo=
uld be the
> same in lojban).

I pronounce "un" and "in" differently, but once my father said "d=E9funte" =
in a=20
way that I heard "d=E9feinte".

Here are some more minimal pairs/triplets/etc. which may be hard for speake=
rs=20
of other languages to hear:
en: sin/sing/thin/thing, ship/sheep, look/Luke
fr: cire/sur/s=9Cur/sueur/sieur, p=E9cher/p=EAcher/p=E9chait/p=EAchait
es: u=F1=F3n/union, ahorra/ahora

Pierre
--=20
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

--=20
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