Received: from mail-qe0-f55.google.com ([209.85.128.55]:58977) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UuQSV-0001IK-SX; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:17 -0700 Received: by mail-qe0-f55.google.com with SMTP id i11sf88788qej.10 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5w7FFNYSeYRIPjvrVfQDHJidlGHRJr6tNoi2BCMsdzg=; b=tdsRr2ImiWNnIJJODMfiGr8k+pJsbGpdLN+m/5mrscFrbkTbJ0GfLB+rZLJHKRjntw eyv6XSqllI0fqxXikXInv52Vxul6Nz7IOp4m+ybqu4XmM4rFxpAkCMaDXkSEbh6kpHm0 6o52HECCYYs5Y1bWB7sOaY46i4kbvU/IylCaNQKwyEimeLnw+MO3asVpmRAhditwl7HY WEiAPLsMOGGhxVSwBsYkEZBNSoWC+BCy8Alu7V1AVlQY/jAGZaMiLYL+WMjtmA5El7Or 0xDpmGW3+PQPO5Tkoz7FGmaazPqTj6Q/fMVduT9dYs6PQn9aTNEIIBdBuJrC1VKMXxBN 8K4w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5w7FFNYSeYRIPjvrVfQDHJidlGHRJr6tNoi2BCMsdzg=; b=FUO6BPD2QApWpWtBW+1xC9+dRVv2mxmq1M0XaSDNRSPJTn/TFoScGrwQJaOwRaF2Lx ucQDbXSLp7rxybpRyAk5BACkHA9uooQE9TZpJv0h1iQg1akAATvBzI/MUo0P8VPJZRtZ Iaau4bHtJ40H9Z8BG3/aCSGaOYUmRNaPcDM9fkO9yM6fTYMBidn7oBAH7WYW/p7BCCpl lSnk1FGsx4wjFjd01/ATc3Ne5WdBjr41psMjguIBtu0N/XTM8TyzGzrIu8vW1hoovDqD 4gU/Da9r3sAqZitNNBNvtd2AlWW5ztC7m/cogEfOUnC08KcWTWrnwVLWkzvszOsTATeA OnKA== X-Received: by 10.50.83.100 with SMTP id p4mr170486igy.15.1372870983733; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.225.70 with SMTP id ri6ls518196igc.30.gmail; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.96.228 with SMTP id dv4mr110019pbb.6.1372870982211; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f45.google.com (mail-pb0-f45.google.com [209.85.160.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ga4si4515297pac.1.2013.07.03.10.03.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.45; Received: by mail-pb0-f45.google.com with SMTP id mc8so316465pbc.32 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.191.36 with SMTP id gv4mr1772736pbc.67.1372870982098; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.254.197 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 19:03:02 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about tense From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Fr=F6jd?= To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c41835e6fb04e09e6fbf X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 14306 --e89a8ff1c41835e6fb04e09e6fbf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok, now this is much clearer for me. Thank you for the explanation, gejyspa. Maybe this doesn't belong to the topic, but is there anyone keeping track of issues like this, so next official grammar, or at least the BPFK sections are updated with discussions and errata etc, including examples of tense combinations, and other issues needs clarifying? The discussions linked from BPFK pages I've seen are from 2000. Just wondering.... co'omi'e jongausib 2013/7/3 Michael Turniansky > The interval X is not specified at all, IMO If you had said "mi co'a ba > ze'u pu bajra", that would mean "I am at the beginning of a long future > time of having had run" (which is true, if you have ever run in the past)= , > then X=3Dze'u. > > --gejyspa > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd = wrote: > >> Ok, but I'm still not convinced. But first lets split the sentence into >> two propositions: >> >> 1. {mi baze'upu bajra} specify in which time interval my running takes >> place. No problem to understand and we could as well simplify this into >> just {mi ze'u bajra} to get to the point. >> >> 2. {mi co'a bajra} says that in the beginning of some unspecified >> interval goi X I start running. >> >> Case I: Is the interval X identical to {ze'u}? In this case the event of >> my running must be in the beginning of {ze'u}. >> >> Case II: Is the interval X not specified in the bridi at all? In this >> case the beginning of running takes place in some unspecified interval a= nd >> the interval {ze'u} says that this running takes place for a long time >> interval in the beginning of the unspecified interval. >> >> >> Ok, so which interpretation do you choose? >> >> mu'omi'e jongausib >> >> >> 2013/7/3 Michael Turniansky >> >>> Well, the way I would interpret that sentence is "I will be having >>> started to run, for a long time" That is to say, I interpret it as mi b= a >>> ze'u (pu (co'a bajra)). See for example 10.3.16 That is, I would >>> interpret all tenses as going outward from the selbri. But reasonable >>> people may disagree with me. And so may unreasonable ones. I live it = up >>> to you to interpret which category the toltu'i be mi are in. >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:42 AM, jongausib wrote= : >>> >>>> >>>> What is the proper interpretation of the sentence {mi baze'upu co'a >>>> bajra}? >>>> >>>> 1. That the "start running-predicate" takes place through the whole >>>> intervall, which probably means that the start running intervall is a = part >>>> of some other unspecified intervall. >>>> >>>> or >>>> >>>> 2. That I start running in the beginning of the intervall {baze'upu}. >>>> >>>> or something else? >>>> >>>> >>>> I couldn't figure this out by reading CLL or BPFK sections, so please >>>> help! >>>> >>>> mu'omi'e jongausib >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8ff1c41835e6fb04e09e6fbf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ok, now this is much clearer for me. Thank you for th= e explanation, gejyspa.

Maybe this doesn't belong to the topic,= but is there anyone keeping track of issues like this, so next official gr= ammar, or at least the BPFK sections are updated with discussions and errat= a etc, including examples of tense combinations, and other issues needs cla= rifying? The discussions linked from BPFK pages I've seen are from 2000= . Just wondering....

co'omi'e jongausib


2013/7/3 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
The interval X is not speci= fied at all, IMO =A0If you had said "mi co'a ba ze'u pu bajra&= quot;, that would mean "I am at the beginning of a long future time of= having had run" (which is true, if you have ever run in the past), th= en X=3Dze'u.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa



On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd <s= o.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, but I'm still = not convinced. But first lets split the sentence into two propositions:
=
1. {mi baze'upu bajra} specify in which time interval my run= ning takes place. No problem to understand and we could as well simplify th= is into just {mi ze'u bajra} to get to the point.

2. {mi co'a bajra} says that in the beginning of some un= specified interval goi X I start running.

Case I: Is the interval X= identical to {ze'u}? In this case the event of my running must be in t= he beginning of {ze'u}.

Case II: Is the interval X not specified in the bridi at all= ? In this case the beginning of running takes place in some unspecified int= erval and the interval {ze'u} says that this running takes place for a = long time interval in the beginning of the unspecified interval.


Ok, so which interpretation do you choose?

=
mu'omi'e jongausib


2013/7/3 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
=A0 Well, the way I would i= nterpret that sentence is "I will be having started to run, for a long= time" That is to say, I interpret it as mi ba ze'u (pu (co'a = bajra)). =A0 See for example 10.3.16 =A0That is, I would interpret all tens= es as going outward from the selbri. =A0But reasonable people may disagree = with me. =A0And so may unreasonable ones. =A0I live it up to you to interpr= et which category the toltu'i be mi =A0are in.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa



On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:42 AM, jongausib <so.cool.og= i@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the proper interpretation of the= sentence {mi baze'upu co'a bajra}?

1. That the "start = running-predicate" takes place through the whole intervall, which prob= ably means that the start running intervall is a part of some other unspeci= fied intervall.

or

2. That I start running in the beginning of the intervall {ba= ze'upu}.

or something else?


I couldn't figure thi= s out by reading CLL or BPFK sections, so please help!

mu'omi= 9;e jongausib

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